Hugo Santos is a Sitecore Technology MVP and the Head of Search Practice at Konabos Consulting Inc. In this episode, Hugo talks about growing up in and returning to Brazil, living and working in Quebec for six years, technology, search, entrepreneurship, parenthood, and hobbies.
Intro
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Akshay Sura
Welcome to the Konaverse. This is Akshay Sura
Matthew McQueeny
and this is Matt McQueeny.
Akshay Sura
And with us today is Hugo Santos, the search practice manager for Konaverse. And he is a handsome looking man, He always gets all the compliments from the Konabos team. Hey Hugo, how you doing today?
Hugo Santos
Hey, Akshay, hey, Matt. I'm doing pretty good, pretty good thank you very much.
Matthew McQueeny
So Hugo, you are based in Brazil. Is that correct?
Hugo Santos
Exactly. So I'm originally from Brazil, and I'm back to Brazil after a few years in Canada.
Matthew McQueeny
So whereabouts in Brazil, are you?
Hugo Santos
I live in Recife, I don't know if you guys know the city. But yeah, it's in the northeast. So the region of the beaches and etc. I'm originally from here. I spent the first 25 years of my life here. Now I'm back.
Matthew McQueeny
So just in terms of growing up, this is where you the area where you grew up, right? Is this, for the naive Americans among us, where everyone says Sao Paolo, right, how far are you from there?
Hugo Santos
Probably around 2000 kilometers.
Matthew McQueeny
Oh, man, that hurts us Americans too Akshay. We're all about miles man, nah I'm just kidding. So the one thing I would ask beforehand it back to actually what was what was your childhood? Like? What was, what did your parents do? Did you have siblings? We'll start there.
Hugo Santos
Okay, so my mom is a teacher. So I was very dedicated to school and etc. because I'm basically I was basically you know, target on that direction by her. My father works in university. So pretty much the same, you know, look and feel the same concept. Learning things in my home was very important. I'm the oldest brother, I have a youngest brother. He's probably three years younger than me around that. So I grew up on that environment. I'm Brazilian, so I used to play soccer, I am kind of obligated to do that you don't have a choice. You got to play soccer and when I wanted to do something different, I used to play FIFA on the computer. So pretty much the same thing. But yeah, that's, that's, that's when everything started.
Akshay Sura
And did you do your university in Brazil?
Hugo Santos
Yes. So, I mean, I was a very good studen you know, I was very dedicated specifically to math, I was very good at math. And when it comes, when it came time to choose my profession, I was, you know, basically analyzing everything related to that I had math, physics and computer science. I already like to kind of try to develop websites on my end using front page and etc. nothing related to programming at all. So it was kind of a natural move. So since I was, you know, probably 14, I already knew that I was going to do something related to computer science.
Akshay Sura
And did you have access to like, did your parents get your personal computer at a really young age? How did you get exposed?
Hugo Santos
Not that young, but around 14 or 13. I got my first computer.
Matthew McQueeny
Well, so we were saying before coming on that you're 32 years old, so that probably puts you in high school down there. Did you guys have mobile phones or anything like that? Or was that not something you did
Hugo Santos
It was starting so I had my first mobile at 15? Yeah, if I remember correctly, so I get my computer one year and a half years before and then I got my first and old device I mean mobile device, not a phone but you know, a touchscreen phone with apps and etc.
Matthew McQueeny
And so when you were when you were growing up, as we get out of our early times, but what would what would a youngster what would a youngster do with their friends in in the part of Brazil you grew up inside me it sounds like you probably play pickup soccer maybe or what kind of things would you do?
Hugo Santos
Yeah, soccer was a big deal but I I mean, my family we love beach go to the beach. So we spent a lot of time I mean, we have a beach here an urban beach at Recife. So used to do that program pretty much every single weekend and from time to time we used to travel to you know, a better beach an hour and a half from here and spend the weekend there with buddies. Used to play a lot of things. soccer and also as I said before, you know video games specifically FIFA.
Matthew McQueeny
Who is your team on FIFA? Brazil?
Hugo Santos
Not really. I used to play a lot with Manchester back in the days but then they got bad so I just switch over Paris Saint German
Matthew McQueeny
Who is your player?
Hugo Santos
I mean when I stop playing because it was a few years ago. I used to play a lot with Cristiano Ronaldo when he was in Real Madrid. But yeah, then I started playing with Paris Saint German because Ibrahimovic, one of my favorites, player
Akshay Sura
Nice. So how did you end up in Canada, Hugo?
Hugo Santos
When I was probably 23, 24. I had a girlfriend already with her for a long time, nine years already. So we decided to marry. And we were like, yeah, we're gonna live we're gonna do you know, we started discussing things more deeply. And we realized that we were both willing to try something different. So we basically decided, yeah, let's let's go live in another place for a while. So I started a little bit a few options Australia and New Zealand and Canada, Canada was pretty much the fastest option. So I knew that I was able to start from here and go to Canada in a few months instead of a few years, specifically for Quebec, because Quebec was pretty open back in the day. So I just started taking French classes. And then seven months later, I was hired by my Canadian company.
Matthew McQueeny
Wow, so when you're making that decision at a pretty young age, like you just brought up a bunch of places around the world. Like, how do you come to understand where the right place for you to go is? Where the options are better? I mean, then you have to take up French, which seems kind of intense, like what was that thought process like trying to figure that out?
Hugo Santos
I will be honest, the most important variable was time. So I was basically analyzing how fast I can get there. The plan was not to be there for the rest of the life. So I just want to do that move fast enough, specifically, because our marriage was kind of associated to that, we decided to do not have wedding here. So we went from, you know, being just no dating and then going out together to move to another country. We never spent a day in our home in Brazil, before going back to Brazil, of course. So I was just in a hurry to do that as fast as possible. And probably, you know, half of the time of us when comparing to Australia or New Zealand, even though the weather was more, you know, appropriate on those places. I'm from Brazil. So Australia, New Zealand they have they have this weather, which is more basically closer to what we have here when compared to Canada. But again, we were young. So we were not that worried, honestly. I mean, I think that if I had to do that before today, I will be calculating a lot of variables that I did not calculate back in the days. But since I was younger, it was easier, long story short.
Matthew McQueeny
Can I ask one thing, Akshay just on the follow up before you go to yours. So again, naive American moment, when you're looking for places from Brazil. America, it's not even a, is that not even a place you can you can think of and why?
Hugo Santos
Yeah, I mean, there is a visa restriction not for Brazilians. But for anyone who is basically not Canadian. When it comes to work in America, they have a visa but the number is restricted so they can deliver this amount of visas every single year. And it's kind of you know, a chance it's not you know, it's not at list with border you just they they have a process which is not that clear or it was for me back in the day not that clear. So I just removed American right away.
Akshay Sura
And how was the the immigration in Quebec what all do you have to go through to get the paperwork
Hugo Santos
Paperwork perspective, it was easy cause I got this company, right. So they basically hired me and they take it took care of the entire process. I just had send them my passport and everything. So that part was easy. When I got there is a completely different story, of course. So I just realized that that I knew zero French, I was basically unable to communicate with anyone in the place. It took me a few months until we start, you know, getting the accent, you know, and the velocity. Basically, I realized that my teacher was being just, you know, very good for me because he used to be to speak in a very paced way. And when you get there, people are speaking fast. So it was hard. But after, after three months, I started to understand things and things started to getting easier and easier and after two years, the language was not even a question anymore. You just get used to that
Akshay Sura
and how long How long were you in Canada after that? I spent six years in total, with the same company or
Hugo Santos
No, I started with this consulting company. Basically, they were the one who got me to Canada. After two years with them I got hired by Coveo.
Matthew McQueeny
So Hugo, when you're approaching a new language, and from everything I've heard Quebecois is kind of even different than maybe the French spoken in France, right? Like, how do you approach that? Were you multilingual, growing up? Were there things that made it a little easier? I mean, I just think the whole saying like fish out of water getting thrown into that, and then the weather and all that there was probably a point where you're just like, woah,was this the right thing?
Hugo Santos
Okay, so, first, first about the language. I'm very methodic. So I just created a method to learn French. I used to have private classes with the teacher, because it was basically most efficient, had private classes five times a week, half an hour to an hour, depending on how much time I had. And then I, during the time that I was driving to work and driving back to home, I have a lot of traffic in Brazil. So that's basically two hours, two hours and a half. I was listening to audios that I recorded previously with my teacher, which were basically a job interview questions and answers. So I was actually just, you know, going through the entire list over and over again, multiple times every single day of the week, during a few months. Then I got when I got back to home at night, I used to study grammar, just to improve a little bit the amount of words that I knew, I knew that I would not be able to know a lot of things in a few months. But if I can repeat things, I used to get pretty good on it. So I was very good on job interviews, after a few months of doing that. And then I realized that when I got there that I wasn't able to communicate, and I wasn't able to buy some bread, just give an example. But if you put me in a job interview, I would probably get hired again. Because you know, I was prepped, I was prepared for that kind of environment. So that's the approach that I had. I wasn't multi language I have. I mean, I have I used to have, you know, a decent level of English but not that good. But again, with math, kind of I that that wasn't a problem. For me, the language was not the biggest problem. The biggest problem was the weather. Once I got in Canada, that winter is completely different from Brazil, right? I mean, it's probably different from the entire world. So, not Russia, maybe but most of the world. So that part was pretty hard. I mean, the first time that we had minus 40 Celsius, I was like, I don't know if that was the right move. But the few years you know, everything is a party, everything is you know, fine. You just go there and have snowboard ski and etc. After the fifth year, I was kind of tired of the winter. That's one of the reasons why I go back to Brazil.
Akshay Sura
Nice, what kind of what kind of work were you doing at Coveo.
Hugo Santos
So the first company was a consulting company, I was doing, you know, basic consultation for another companies. And then Covo hired me to help them develop the Coveo for Sitecore model. Coveo is a search company and they were creating this model for Sitecore. And they knew that I had experience with Sitecore on the previous company. So they basically were looking for people who could, who could help them develop the product. Since I had experienced the integration with Coveo would be pretty much easier. Coveo, is already complicated product by itself. So hiring someone who doesn't know Coveo who doesn't know Sitecore and trying to teach them both at the same time would be complicated. So it was a good fit back in the days.
Matthew McQueeny
Is Quebec because of maybe the the easier entry to being able to you know, move there, like you did. It kind of sounds like it's a little bit of a tech center, is that correct? Like it's got a lot of technology, maybe companies connections to the outside world, they can get talent there. Is that right?
Hugo Santos
Yeah, that's right, specifically the city of Quebec since the, I mean, they're the central part of the government. So they have a lot of contracts with the government and those consulting companies that are basically offering services to the government themselves. And they don't have enough people to provide that service and so they stopped looking for people in Quebec only and they started trying to get as much as possible people from other countries. Ideally people who can speak French but they I mean the situation was getting to a point on which they were able to hire people with a poor level of French and teach them at work. So when I when I got hired, I had French classes at work during a few months.
Matthew McQueeny
What was it like living in, I mean, what was it like as a city? Like did it almost feel like, other than the cold and stuff and I guess the language, did it feel similar at all, to cities around growing up?
Hugo Santos
It's very different. It's a beautiful city,first part, so the first impression is amazing. It's beautiful. It looks like you were in a movie because it's very old and kind of rustic. So feels like you're 500 years before, so it's different, you still have you know castles and you still have you know big walls and etc. It's a beautiful city. People are different from Brazil, when it comes to education, of course, so the level of education was completely different. People respect your space way more. So you are kind of, that was another thing that shocked me a little bit at the beginning. The respect, of course, the level of education. It's, it's not even comparable. So it's completely different, even when compared to Canada itself is already you know, another level higher. So when compared to Brazil is not even fair. So that was a big difference for me. And I mean, the first two years, everything was new, right. So a lot of different experience at large. So the museum, you know, the I mean, the parks, the nature parks, and then you have snowboard and have the ski. I used to say that the first two years, everything was a huge party, new friends. So I used I used to make friends pretty easily. So I had a lot of friends at the beginning, a lot of Brazilian friends specifically, but a few friends from Canada. So a lot of exchange, cultural exchanges, because even the Brazilian friends, they were not from my city. So people all around Brazil, they all get together Canada, in Quebec precisely. So we used to party a lot and those peoples they, even though they were coming from Brazil, they do not have the same kind of culture. So it was an interchangeable experience with Brazilians in another country. So that was another thing that I found that I thought that it was very curious.
Akshay Sura
Nice. So you said part of the reason you went back is one you were never hoping to stay forever, two because of the cold. What made you decide finally to say, Okay, it's time to go.
Hugo Santos
It was a process. Of course, it's not an easy decision. Honestly, when I after six years in Canada, I felt more Canadian than Brazilian. So when when we decided to go back to Brazil, it was another immigration. So I spent five months here before and 2018, just to see if I was able to adapt myself to Brazil again, it was hard. That was very, you know, surprising. To me, it was hard. The adaptation very hard, specifically about the security. Brazil is not a safe place in general. And I felt that difference when I spent those five months, but after a few months, you know, people get used to anything. So I just got used to that as well. Everything started when I when I had my first daughter in Canada, having kids, when you're not with the family to help and etc. is hard. We were able to do that. It was kind of okay, it was a very difficult experience. But we know we got over it. And then my wife started talking about a second kid, a second child, and I was like, nope, that's a deal breaker. Nope, nope, nope, nope, not at all. And then we started negotiating, and you know, going back to Brazil, just to do that started to become a possibility. And then we started progressing, progressing that did that negotiation and after a few months, we were like, yeah, we can go back to Brazil have the key then go back to Canada. And that was the initial plan. So we went back to Brazil, my second daughter was born a few. I mean, on year and a half ago, kind of and now that we're here, I don't know if we're going to go back. Again. So what well adapted to our reality here in Brazil. I'm still working with the guys in Canada and U.S. So I think that I got the best of both worlds. I don't think they're going to go back at least in the next few years.
Matthew McQueeny
So, Hugo, before we move back to Brazil, I happen to eavesdrop cc on an email where you were talking to someone about great road trips did you go on cool getaways in when you were in Canada? Where would you where would you go to?
Hugo Santos
When I was in Canada I used to travel a lot inside Quebec itself has a lot of nature parks in Quebec, but I mean, the the most long road trip that I did was basically Ottawa and Montreal, which are five hours from Quebec, but nothing greater than that. I used to travel a lot to cities like Sherbrooke and Granby cities inside Quebec, the state of Quebec just because you know, they were calling. I don't like driving a lot, that's to be honest, that's that's one of the reasons
Matthew McQueeny
Can you go to for in the status you were, could you go to America like to visit?
Hugo Santos
I had an American visa, a tourism and business visa. But now that I have the Canadian passport, I can Go to U.S without a visa. But back in the days, I used to have a Canadian working permit or working visa and another visa for U.S, which was basically tourism in business.
Matthew McQueeny
So the other thing I would say is that's a real that's a solid amount of time six years the thought that maybe you go back, you know, formative years like basically your your 20s I mean, did you almost come back to Brazil feeling like you were, in some sense like a totally different person than than the kid who left.
Hugo Santos
Yeah, totally. I mean, I spent I used to say that I spent most of my adult life in Can I in Canada, I mean, I know that 18 is considered a lot but I wasn't an adult at all. My life's as a native started in Canada so when I was 24, that's when I got married that's when I started getting bills and etc, had my home and etc. So that's when my life started and most of my adult life I was there so when I go back to Brazil, I have I had to basically readapt myself to have new friends and most of my friends are still here, but a few of them are living in other cities and a field of a few friends that I used to have in Brazil they're so different now that we don't match anymore. So you know, all that kind of re-adaptation process I had to go through initially it was hard but after a few months again we get it we get used to pretty much everything so I just got used to it
Akshay Sura
So what's next for the Santos family other than buying a huge resort right next to a yacht
Hugo Santos
By the way that's not true guys, but yeah, sure. So I mean, we like to every pretty much every single weekend we do a huge barbecue a Brazilian barbecue. Most often than not at my home because I have babies so that's a huge you know, we cannot go out a lot because babies they cry and they want to sleep and it's better to just have just been in our place but that's that's one of the things. Next week we're going to go to the guess what leeches again so we're going to spend a weekend at a beach. We used to grab an HLA or a bangle in a beach closest. I don't like to drive so and my limits three hours and have a lot of beaches in the three hour circle here. So just you know go here and go there. Next year we're gonna have Akshay and you Matt go back to Brazil to do our no big Konabos trip so you guys want to see that in person. But yeah, that that's that's my favorite program. So barbecue with family or friends and travel a little bit to the beaches and spending the weekend or a week.
Matthew McQueeny
What was speaking uh, you know, weekends and stuff you brought up kind of partying in Canada with with all these cultures. What was we won't go too deep, but like, what was what was the party scene like? Was it like anywhere else? What did they you know, what was their alcohol of choice? What was the things they did me interested in that part?
Hugo Santos
The first point is that Quebec is different from the rest Quebec is a very quiet city. So there is no you know, huge pub or anything like that, or barely no pubs that they will not be there until 5am. I used to party in Brazil until 7am. When I got back, that was a shock. I was like, oh, things close here at 1am. I used to go there and at 1am. So I had to adapt myself a little bit. But after the kids, it's totally different. I've had to get up at 5am again. So it's not a big deal. So what we used to do is that we used to invite people to go to up to my home, one of the hobbies that I have is to cook so I basically I like cooking for people. So I did that pretty much every single weekend. So we have we have a few friends, we invited them and I used to cook some Brazilian recite or even you know something different. But the reason it was just enough to drink some beers, you know, drink some wine to talk a little bit have fun. The food itself was never the most important part of the of the of the event.
Akshay Sura
Nice. Makes sense. So So what's next for Hugo, the business plan, from a career perspective.
Hugo Santos
Right now, as I said, I am leading the search practice at Konabos. The biggest step from here is going to be increase the size of the search practice. So instead of just having me as the specialist, we're gonna have a few people here working with me, I'm going to train them on search. And we're going to have some projects which are 100% dedicated to that instead of just being part of other projects. We're going to have projects on search itself. So that's, that's what I'm working on right now. It's going to be it's already happening right now. It's going to be the focus during the next few years, I would say it's a huge difference instead of just being one guy delivering not only being one guy delivery but not not not only managing people but also being part of a pipeline. getting new deals and etc. but already liked that part of the deal. It's not it's not a problem for me I like the being involved on the business side of the of the company not only delivering the technical part but also being part of the business. So it was a kind of a natural move is something that I that I'm working on during the last few years. And I think that there's perfect moments
Matthew McQueeny
Hugo, that's a good point, we went a step further on a question that I wanted to ask a step back on. I've been in tech for like, how many years now? 15. maybe or so. Working on websites working on all this? I know SEO, you know, outside search engine stuff and how you optimize for SEO? One of the things I was most amazed about being in Konabos is that there's this depth of things happening inside the site. I always thought it was just the little box at the top right, you know, and it was decent. Or maybe you could let Google do it for you. But there are like five to six services potentially feeding internal search in a site external search in a site. Talk to me about that was that as much a shock to you, as you got working in this world that there's this whole kind of like, you know, I watched that that show on that Netflix that ad show where they have the upside down, it feels like the upside down world to me was at a shock to you too?
Hugo Santos
Not really but I would explain why. So the cool part about my experience with search is that it started kind of naturally. So my first project when I got to Canada, in 2014 was a Sitecore project. So I was hired as an MVC developer and since my first project boom Sitecore in your face. During that project, I had my first experience with search and Sitecore, which was basic Solr, very straightforward and I was kind of learning Sitecore while having to deal with that I wasn't paying a lot of attention to that part. But it was, I mean, it's part of Sitecore, right? So got to deal with it. So I learned that Okay, there is Solr, and that's how you deal, how you deal with search and Sitecore. And then a few years later, I got hired by Coveo and then I was introduced to the concept to Okay, we have client facing search and internal search, those are different, you cannot use Coveo for that you should use Coveo for that. My knowledge was being actually was evolving kind of gradually, I never had to learn everything in one shot. So that's why it felt natural to me. After a few years doing that, that, okay, you have this kind of search, I have the kind of search this search the client face, it can be bad or good. Those are the variables, you've got to feel them as much as possible, make sure that you have the budget and blah, blah, blah. So the answer is no. But those are those are the reasons I know that for someone who's just starting and had to have to learn everything in one shot. It's a lot. It's a lot, definitely.
Matthew McQueeny
So to actually, you know, have the faith, the entrepreneurial faith to start your own search practice. What was it about search where you were, you saw that you saw that opportunity in it in something that probably a lot of people don't? You know, we don't see, like we understand it there. But like, what what was it that excited you the entrepreneurial opportunity of this niche, if you will.
Hugo Santos
My entrepreneurial side was already there. So a few years before this moment, I started a new startup in 2017. So that was my first company, we spent two years developing the product trying to sell that was my first experience with real world business, then I had a restaurant with my wife in parallel to my tech career. That was my first you know real world experience, then we have clients, have to sell you know, you have all the all the problems that comes to the restaurant, then we sold the company that again, another experience, after the all that experience that was like, Okay, I'm not going to create something else in tech, but it's going to take a while. So I need to think a little bit about what's the next step. And it was theoretical view back in the days. And then I realized that back, if you go back a few years, a Sitecore developer was not a role. Right? So basically, you had MVC developers, or C sharp developers, and if you know Sitecore is good and after you go forward a few years and then you have Sitecore developers, people are basically hiring for a Sitecore. So you're a Sitecore, XP specialist. And I just know, they looked at that a few years later, we're going to have Coveo specialists. So instead of being a site, people are going to hire for Coveo that was 2018. So in 2021, right now, and I have I received those emails, people are looking for Coveo specialists. If you go further, a little bit, a few years, I think that people are going to be looking for specialists more and more specific on those texts, which learning is hard. So if I want to start with Coveo, SearchStak or anything else today, it's not going to, you won't take you know two days until you have every knowledge that you need to be in to do in order to deliver properly in a project, so people just tend to look for specialists, if you can have a team here ready to roll, and people will hire them, its that simple, people need Sitecore specialists, people need Coveo specialists, people need SearchStak specialists, if you have them ready, and they are also they used to deliver, and you have some sort of trust on them. I just feel that that that role is going to be more and more needed in the marketplace. So it was a natural move for me as well, when it came to time to create a search practice of cannabis.
Matthew McQueeny
So actually, I totally missed this point. Did we? Did you know that he had a restaurant?
Hugo Santos
No, not at all.
Sushi restaurant. I said that, one of my I mean, I basically have two hobbies in my life. I don't watch series, I don't see movies. I like to cook and I do jujitsu so that's it. So I was I was basically literally in doubt about opening a Jiu Jitsu school or buying a restaurant. It was in 2016 or 2017. And I got this offer and oh, to buy this sushi franchise. It was basically a sushi franchise very simple to operate, and very profitable and etc. So my wife was, you know, coming back from the first pregnancy and she was ready to go back to the marketplace again. She's a physiotherapist. But she's she's not felt, you know, going back to that market again. So we were like, yeah, let's try this worst case scenario, we sell it, it's that simple. So we basically bought the restaurant, we spent five months with it. But after five months, it was clear for me that it wasn't a good move, just because I wasn't able to hire as fast as I needed. So I was spending a lot of my own hours there. And my wife was just killing her at the restaurant. So my idea was never to be there. It was to create a restaurant, you know, make it work, have a manager move to the next one, create a you know, a franchise chain. But it didn't work because of basically in Canada, the unemployment rates very low. So it's hard to find people, specifically good people. So just forget about a restaurant, it wasn't in the city itself was a little bit far from the center. So it was really hard to find good people. And that was the reason why did it work. So it was profitable, it was easy to sell, which we sold them in five days, basically. But it was a good experience. I mean, it was the first time that I had to deal with you know, real clients selling and accounting, you know, in taxes and etc. It was kind of I basically, I basically got paid for this MBA if you want.
Matthew McQueeny
Wow. So how many days a week Did you eat sushi?
Hugo Santos
Before the restaurant or after the restaurant?
Matthew McQueeny
During the restaurant?
Hugo Santos
Oh, every single day, basically. But after the restaurant, it's really hard. It's really hard for me those days to eat sushi. My wife she that she's she can still take them. And I'm not I'm not a sushi guy anymore.
Matthew McQueeny
Unbelievable. So I have two Brazilian questions, and then Akshay what is gonna land us?
Hugo Santos
You gotta make that in Portuguese. Go ahead.
Matthew McQueeny
Absolutely. So the one is, I think you said you had you had two kids. When you were when you were officially moving back. Right? You have you had your two
Hugo Santos
we had we had one kid and a wife, which was pregnant,
Matthew McQueeny
very pregnant. Okay, so you talked about the safety aspect and like concern for that part? Can you just walk like kind of talk through what that what that means and how you kind of got through that because I think we're all here as parents like that's, that's such a preeminent thought, right? With little with kids with little kids, kids, whichever.
Hugo Santos
Totally. So I mean, the first thing is that that second move was 10,000 times harder. The first move, by the way, the first time that I had that had to move to Canada was young, I was you know, basically not married, did not have kids or anything. Going back to Brazil, I was married I have, you know, a lot of responsibilities. One kid, one wife, which was pregnant. So that decision was really, really hard, took me months to take the decision. It's a trade off. I mean, security's not that best, the best, in the world in Brazil, but then we have family. And I just, you know, I was seeing my first daughter growing up without the grandparents with her. And I, and I was able to see that it was, you know, bad for her. She was basically unhappy because of that. So I was like, it's an easy, it's an easy decision, because Brazil is not that good from a security perspective. But we have another things and, and I grew up in Brazil. I mean, I grew up by myself who grew up in Brazil. And I know that security is not that bad. The problem is that when you are in another country just receiving bad news all the time your perception changes. So my perception as a Canadian, the Canadian Hugo was very different from the reality and I knew that. So even though I was feeling bad things about that, I knew that the reality was was going to be very different. Once I got back to here, and that was exactly what happened. So when we got back to Brazil, the first few months were was they were difficult from that I was basically afraid to go out. But after a few months to just get used to it, and here I am, I'm safe.
Matthew McQueeny
You're good. So the other one, if there's one country that probably has vied with America for its for his lackluster, covid 19 response is probably Brazil, and they and they share, they shared something, which are very bombastic leaders, some presidents at the certain time. So what, you know, you kind of get dropped into Brazil during COVID-19, too. What has that been like, over the last year and a quarter for you?
Hugo Santos
I mean, we went back to Brazil, three months before pandemic hit us, and my daughter, she was born on March 2020. So when it started, the month. It was hard at the beginning, specifically because of the unknown factor. So we basically were, you know, blind, you never know what's going on. You never had you know, you don't have you know, real information. I would say that this time, even though the numbers are getting bad, and knowing Brazil, you know that. At least we know what is going on so we can take care of ourselves. Even though the authorities are not that good, we can do our part. So we do whatever you want to keep ourselves safe and hope and I really hope so that until the end of the year, we're going to have the vaccine here in Brazil, the numbers are the vaccine numbers are growing actually up pretty quickly. So I'm feeling that we already you know, closest to the end then to the beginning. So that's, that's at least one thing that keeps me that keeps keeps my mind in the right place.
Akshay Sura
So you said you have two hobbies. One is cooking. The other one is jujitsu so i'll ask the jujitsu, one first, so when did you get started on it? How often do you practice it?
Hugo Santos
Yeah, sure. I'll tell you the entire history. So I mean, when I was 15 years old, I was a very skinny guy. And I started lifting weights, you know, just to change that. That's it. So I used to do a lot of gym, you know, lifting weights until I was 21, 20. Then I just got bored with that. I stopped it totally, I was kind of in it, but I stopped it, totally. And that was the same period of time that I use that I decided to go to live in San Paolo for work. So I was traveling all the time between Recife and San Paolo, you know, being away from home for my friends, you know, just working a lot and eating a lot. So just my weight goes up, went up a little bit, something like that, or 40 pounds. And when I got back to Recife, I was like, Man, I'm in a bad shape. I gotta take care of myself. And I wasn't able to go back to the gym anymore. So that's when I started, you know, doing jujitsu for that reason first, so I knew that jujitsu was good for you know, losing weight. I started on 2012 Yeah, 2012 and I've been doing jujitsu since then. Those days less than I used to specifically becasue of time, jujitsu is very time consuming. So the class takes two hours, and I'm basically dead one hour later after it ends. So it takes three to three hours, basically. So I'm not doing that much. And I'm balancing that with some lifting weights just to keep my body healthy and etc. But I like I like it a lot. It's I mean, you guys should try choking someone it's it's a very good experience.
Akshay Sura
Maybe. The next one is is it the love cooking what kinds of stuff do you cook what kinds of dishes do you cook, cuisines and all?
Hugo Santos
Anything, anything except sushi. I mean, I used to cook a lot back in the day sushi before the restaurant after the restaurant. Never. I will never cook sushi again. But Italian foods. My favorite cuisine is the word. Brazilian food of course, I'm here so I got to do some Brazilian food. Brazilian barbecue is basically I don't even consider that cooking. So it's so deep in our in a routine. So I basically do that every single week. A little bit of French food, but I don't like that a lot more for my wife. But yeah, for me, if you ask me what I want to cook is going to be Italian food for certain for sure.
Akshay Sura
Nice. So the final question, Hugo. If you were to go back to the 18 year old you go and give him advice. What would you give? What advice would you give the 18 year old?
Hugo Santos
Oh, that's a good question. I would say start start learning how to sell sooner than later.
Matthew McQueeny
Businessman right here.
Hugo Santos
That's probably the most important skill in the world and people often don't pay attention to that.
Akshay Sura
No philosophy here huh, Matt. Purely straight to the point so that's awesome
Matthew McQueeny
Buy that sushi restaurant now
Akshay Sura
Yeah and plan for it when you're 18. Anyways, thank you. Thank you so much Hugo for for joining us and spending the time with us. Have a wonderful rest of your day.
Hugo Santos
Thanks actually Thanks, Matt. It was a pleasure.
Outro
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