George Chang is Director, Web Platforms at Hexagon AB and an 8x Sitecore MVP. In this episode, Geoge talks about Taipei, Dallas, Atlanta, childhood interests, family, travel agencies, career, and a rich history with Sitecore.
[00:00:00] Welcome to Konabos, a conversation experience platform hosted and curated by Konabos Consulting.
[00:00:06] Konabos is a global technology leader.
[00:00:09] And while this podcast will be connected by technology, the glue is human stories and narrative.
[00:00:14] Technology can bring us together.
[00:00:16] It can make our lives better and more efficient in myriad ways.
[00:00:20] But it cannot replace human discourse and the magic that can happen by the interchange of ideas.
[00:00:26] Hope you enjoy our podcast.
[00:00:32] Welcome to the Koniverse.
[00:00:33] This is Akshay Sura.
[00:00:34] And this is Matt McQueenie.
[00:00:36] And today we have with us a special friend, George Chang.
[00:00:40] Hey, George.
[00:00:41] Welcome to the show.
[00:00:42] Hey, guys.
[00:00:43] Happy to be here.
[00:00:45] Yes.
[00:00:45] It's been a while to make it happen for both sides, but thank you.
[00:00:50] George, we like to go back to the very beginning.
[00:00:53] Where were you born?
[00:00:54] Where did you grow up?
[00:00:56] Wow, we're going way back.
[00:00:57] Okay.
[00:00:58] So I was born in Taipei, Taiwan.
[00:01:00] So I was living there until we moved to the States around when I was five.
[00:01:06] And then grew up in near Dallas, Texas, a suburb of Dallas, Texas, Plano, Texas.
[00:01:12] And so kind of grew up there mostly all through high school and then came out to Atlanta for college.
[00:01:19] And I've been stuck here ever since.
[00:01:22] So, yeah, Atlanta is now my home.
[00:01:25] I grew up in Texas.
[00:01:26] But Atlanta is kind of now my new adopted home.
[00:01:28] I guess I have to say that after almost a quarter of a century here.
[00:01:34] Growing up, what did your parents do, George?
[00:01:36] Yeah.
[00:01:38] Yeah.
[00:01:38] So my parents worked in travel.
[00:01:42] So they had a job that no longer exists, which is the travel agent.
[00:01:49] And so they had a travel agency.
[00:01:53] And, you know, for the younger generation, the purpose of a travel agency was that, you
[00:02:00] know, when people needed to buy airplane tickets or a lot of we did a lot of tours, guided tours
[00:02:05] and things.
[00:02:06] They would call up an agency and they would book the tickets for them, find them the best
[00:02:09] times and everything.
[00:02:10] This was pre-internet.
[00:02:12] And so my parents did a lot of that, just kind of a lot of booking airfare.
[00:02:20] And they also did a kind of we had an extension of the of the business that was doing tours.
[00:02:26] And so my dad would kind of act as a de facto tour guide a lot of times.
[00:02:30] So I got to go to some pretty cool places, tagging along.
[00:02:33] So that was that was fun.
[00:02:35] And so I kind of always had a love for travel because of that kind of from those experiences
[00:02:42] growing up.
[00:02:43] And so the Taipei part.
[00:02:46] Yeah.
[00:02:46] Is that where they were based originally or how come you were born there?
[00:02:50] Yeah.
[00:02:50] So that's where that's where we were based originally.
[00:02:53] My parents were born there.
[00:02:55] They had a they worked in travel agencies there, too.
[00:02:58] And so I want to know if that kind of was they decided to do their own thing here.
[00:03:04] So I would want to ask how was the transition from Taipei to to Dallas?
[00:03:10] But you were five and I was I don't think you would remember any of that.
[00:03:15] Yeah, I all I remember is what the stories my parents would tell me.
[00:03:20] Right.
[00:03:20] Of like, you know, I didn't I grew up in Taipei and so I didn't speak any English.
[00:03:26] I just kind of grew up the first few years of my life speaking Chinese.
[00:03:29] And my parents would tell me like the first day of school they would send me and they were like so worried.
[00:03:34] Like as any kind of immigrant parent would be a kid who doesn't speak the language.
[00:03:40] Right.
[00:03:40] And they would tell me that the story was always, you know, it was the first day of school.
[00:03:45] Like sent me in and then like I just instantly befriended some kid.
[00:03:49] And basically he was just like he was jabbering away at me in English and I was jabbering away at him in Chinese.
[00:03:55] And we're just like having this conversation.
[00:03:57] And so, you know, sometimes it's nice to think of those experiences and kind of relive that, you know, be more like kids in that respect.
[00:04:06] But, yeah, it was I don't remember much, but I do know, you know, it was it was definitely an adjustment for our parents, for my parents.
[00:04:16] And I think it's just the prototypical immigrant experience, really, of kind of moving to a country, not knowing anything, not knowing the language and kind of having to build your life from scratch.
[00:04:30] Do you have siblings, George?
[00:04:31] I do. I have a younger brother.
[00:04:34] He is up in the Northeast.
[00:04:38] Yeah.
[00:04:40] So growing up, what were your like hobbies?
[00:04:44] What did you want to be?
[00:04:45] Oh, man.
[00:04:47] I don't think I ever thought about what I wanted to be.
[00:04:50] I feel like all the other kids had like big dreams.
[00:04:52] Like, I want to be an astronaut or a doctor.
[00:04:54] And I think I just wanted to be an adult, really.
[00:04:58] Just wanted to grow up and experience adult things.
[00:05:03] You know, yeah, I think if anything, I wanted to be unemployed and just have fun for the rest of my life.
[00:05:11] So, but yeah, I mean, I think I've always had a love for technology.
[00:05:17] You know, we got our first computer when I was, I don't know, I must have been probably eight at the time.
[00:05:24] My parents got it.
[00:05:26] My parents got it and it was like this old 386, which is top of the line at the time.
[00:05:30] But they got it for so that they go, funny enough, work from home.
[00:05:34] So, the world of travel agencies is very much like you have a terminal that's plugged into like airline systems.
[00:05:41] And so, by doing this, they were able to work from home, like plug into the airline system directly from home on our old like 300 bottom motor or whatever it was.
[00:05:54] But yeah, so I got this computer.
[00:05:56] They bought it for themselves.
[00:05:57] And of course, the first thing I did was, you know, was break it because that's, that was a pretty common theme through my childhood.
[00:06:05] It was breaking things.
[00:06:05] So, but after it got fixed, it was really, you know, you learned a lot from, from breaking things.
[00:06:13] And, you know, once, once it was back, it was just trying to understand how this thing worked.
[00:06:20] Right.
[00:06:20] And I think it all started from there of, you know, breaking things, tearing things apart, and then trying to understand how the technology worked.
[00:06:30] And that's, that's kind of, I feel like it's, uh, that, that mentality has kind of followed me throughout the rest of my life, uh, for better or for worse.
[00:06:41] What, what is it like when you've, you've grown up to be really involved in technology?
[00:06:48] And when you look back at those times, maybe even as your parents aged and then saw the transformation of society, but especially like travel agents, what is it like when you think back to that and being like hooked right into the airlines and all and just, oh, I know it's crazy.
[00:07:06] It's absolutely crazy.
[00:07:08] Uh, I, I hadn't even thought about this much until you all just asked me this question of just the fact that there are no travel agents anymore.
[00:07:15] Like that's a, that's not even a, a job that you can get anymore.
[00:07:19] Right.
[00:07:20] Just, you know, everyone goes online, books their tickets.
[00:07:22] And I mean, it's, I mean, it's been, I don't know, it's the advent of the internet.
[00:07:27] I feel like has just negated the need of a lot of jobs, which is good.
[00:07:32] Um, you know, in a sense, because, you know, it also creates a lot more different opportunities.
[00:07:38] I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing without the internet.
[00:07:41] Right.
[00:07:41] Um, and so I, I think it's just a shift in technology and a shift in everything else, but it, yeah, it is really kind of crazy that, um, you know, my parents, like the job that they did is completely defunct at this point.
[00:07:58] So like at what point through your school were you tempted by technology?
[00:08:05] Oh man, it was always, I think I've always had this thing for kind of meeting.
[00:08:14] And then maybe this was just kind of this, this, uh, foundation of kind of travel that was instilled in me when I was younger, but it was always really interesting for me to talk to people from other places.
[00:08:26] Right. And I remember kind of the early days of the internet, like AOL and stuff and chat rooms, IRC, right.
[00:08:33] To meet these people from far away places, right.
[00:08:37] And be able to chat with them and talk to them and get to know them.
[00:08:40] Um, and that was always kind of the thing that brought me, you know, with technology is this ability to make the world a little bit smaller in a sense.
[00:08:49] Right. Of being able to communicate with these, uh, people from all over the world with, you know, similar interests, different interests and whatnot.
[00:08:58] Um, and so because of that, I think, you know, when I got to school and everything, it was, you know, there was the, um, you know, there was the, the, the universe of people that you had physically.
[00:09:12] Right. But then there was kind of this whole other world of people that you wind up, you wound up communicating with all over the place.
[00:09:20] Right. And it never felt that, I guess at the time, like the mix was good, uh, because you never really felt like, Hey, like I had to, my entire life revolved around people at school or friends.
[00:09:33] And I had to meet in person, right. You had this other group of friends that were online and it was just kind of cool to have, um, kind of this extended group of friends, people you've never met in your, in real life.
[00:09:46] Right. People who have been no more than just a bunch of letters on a screen for your entire relationship with these people.
[00:09:52] And, um, yeah, it was, it's, it's really kind of interesting of, um, you know, how even, even just understanding, like broadening your horizons and interacting with people in real life.
[00:10:04] Right. Like it brings a, an extra dimension of experiences, uh, that you wind up having with kind of interacting with more of a global audience, um, to how you interact with real people.
[00:10:16] Right. And I think that started early on. And I mean, nowadays it's just kind of par for the course, right.
[00:10:22] You know, uh, kind of having this global workforce and, uh, interacting with people all over the world.
[00:10:28] Right. Like we're, we're so much more attuned to what is going on in different cultures and ways of working with different people.
[00:10:37] Um, but at the time, right, it was very much like, uh, I felt like a very new thing for me, even, I mean, one, because I was young, but two, just, it was, you know, most people's universes were, you know, very small.
[00:10:51] You know, I had the, I had the fortunate opportunity just because of what my parents did to be able to travel and to see things.
[00:10:57] But, you know, I had friends growing up that had never been on a plane or, you know, until they were adults, right.
[00:11:06] They've never been out of their hometown. Um, and so I kind of had that fortunate, uh, opportunity to kind of be able to experience that.
[00:11:16] But definitely, I don't think that's, that was the experience of everyone.
[00:11:19] But I feel like technology is one of those things that brings us together and it is able to expand those boundaries.
[00:11:25] You know, you don't have to put on a plane.
[00:11:26] You can, uh, meet new people in, in faraway lands, right.
[00:11:31] Without, without actually having to kind of meet them in person.
[00:11:34] And, um, that was, that was something that was really, uh, that was a cool experience.
[00:11:38] I think growing up and just being kind of, uh, being able to experience that early on.
[00:11:44] The other thing, so your entree into America being Dallas, Texas, what was it like?
[00:11:51] What were your, uh, feelings?
[00:11:53] It didn't have to be when you were five, but just growing up there, it's a different place.
[00:11:57] It's cool.
[00:11:58] It's big.
[00:11:59] Yeah.
[00:11:59] It's cowboys.
[00:12:00] It's like, what, what do you take from growing up there?
[00:12:04] Um, yeah, it's a good question.
[00:12:08] Um, I honestly just, I think I just had a very normal experience there.
[00:12:15] Um, I found that things later on, I found that things that I considered was just normal and things that people did everywhere were not the case.
[00:12:24] Uh, but, um, yeah.
[00:12:27] So for example, um, you know, in, in kind of growing up in like junior high and stuff in seventh grade, we have a whole year that, you know, you took us history and you took other history classes.
[00:12:40] And there was a whole year dedicated to just Texas history.
[00:12:43] Right.
[00:12:43] And so I just thought that was normal.
[00:12:46] Like I figured in every state was just like, you know, people who grew up in Illinois had a year of Illinois history.
[00:12:50] And people who grew up in Kentucky had a year of Kentucky history.
[00:12:54] Only Texas has that level of pride to dedicate an entire year with child schooling to Texas history.
[00:13:01] Uh, and so, um, yeah, just different things like that, different little traditions.
[00:13:05] Um, you know, I was, I remember not too long ago, I was describing this idea of, uh, homecoming moms to people.
[00:13:13] And for people who didn't grow up in Texas, uh, they are these obscenely grotesque, large ribbon covered, uh, with bells and cowbells and streamers and everything.
[00:13:27] And there are these giant chrysanthemum things that for homecoming that the guys would make for their dates.
[00:13:35] Um, and it would just, basically the, it was almost like a popularity contest of who's can be bigger.
[00:13:42] And so these poor girls are wearing these giant streamer covered, uh, like chrysanthemum things, right?
[00:13:49] 15 pounds a piece, right?
[00:13:51] Like they're, they're humongous and they're work walking around school all day with them.
[00:13:55] There's cowbells dragging along and playing them along.
[00:13:59] Like it's insane.
[00:14:00] And I just figured that was just something that everyone did.
[00:14:02] It turns out very much a Texas thing.
[00:14:06] Um, so yeah, so, uh, it was fun.
[00:14:09] It was kind of fun to understand learn that there was a lot of things that I thought kind of growing up, uh, was, was very normal.
[00:14:16] And people just give me strange looks when I talk about them nowadays.
[00:14:21] Yeah.
[00:14:22] Were you into the sports scene?
[00:14:25] Um, a little bit.
[00:14:26] Um, I mean, I think growing up in, in the nineties and Dallas, like you couldn't not be a Cowboys fan.
[00:14:32] Um, like I think by Texas law, you, you had to be at that point.
[00:14:36] Um, you know, it was the, the years where, you know, they won like four out of three out of four years, Superbowl three out of four years and everything.
[00:14:47] And it was like, everyone was just, that was, it was kind of instilled in you, whether you wanted to be a fan or not those years.
[00:14:54] Yeah.
[00:14:55] It's, it's, it's actually, I hadn't thought of that growing up there then.
[00:14:58] And it's fascinating how much winning at a certain point of people's lives makes them fans of that team forever.
[00:15:06] Like right now is the chiefs or was the Patriots.
[00:15:11] And cause people love to win.
[00:15:13] They want to watch sports where people are winning and, but then it creates like a fandom for like a lifetime.
[00:15:19] And then you look at the Cowboys, they haven't won since them.
[00:15:22] Right.
[00:15:22] But you have all these, Oh yeah.
[00:15:25] In the back of my head, I'm still like, yeah, they're probably still pretty good.
[00:15:28] Right.
[00:15:28] Like that's, um, but yeah, it, it is kind of crazy that it's, it develops this fandom.
[00:15:36] And I mean, I think that it's just people like winning, like people like backing out a winning team and, um, and, and, you know, the media helps too.
[00:15:45] Right.
[00:15:45] Like the, you, they, the players become household names, right.
[00:15:49] They get endorsements and everything.
[00:15:50] Like everyone knows, you know, just like how everyone knew who Troy Aikman and Emmett Smith were back then.
[00:15:56] Like everyone knows who Patrick Mahomes is today.
[00:15:58] Right.
[00:15:58] And that was Kelsey for also for other reasons, but, um, you know, like people, you know, when you're winning, uh, yeah.
[00:16:07] Even you just that, that exposure to everything.
[00:16:11] And then they become kind of almost like heroes.
[00:16:14] Yeah.
[00:16:14] And you're always visible in the time when everyone's watching, like, that's a big lesson in business.
[00:16:20] Right.
[00:16:21] Yeah.
[00:16:21] The more you succeed, the longer you're in view, the more people want to follow it.
[00:16:27] Right.
[00:16:27] Because they want to be attached to it.
[00:16:30] And, but you can't, you can't just win.
[00:16:33] You actually have to still put in the work and push and be talented.
[00:16:38] Yeah.
[00:16:38] I mean, it's even harder, right?
[00:16:40] Because now you've got greater expectations on you.
[00:16:42] You've won before and people will just expect you to win again.
[00:16:47] Right.
[00:16:47] Um, and to do, be able to do that, you know, and everyone's got your number.
[00:16:51] Um, so you've got to work harder than the next guy to kind of keep that up.
[00:16:56] So I don't know if this was just from watching that TV show that was on halt and catch fire,
[00:17:02] but I think it was based on real life, but did Dallas kind of had a tech scene that was
[00:17:10] important.
[00:17:11] And now, isn't it interesting too, how Austin has become such a center?
[00:17:15] How do you take the tech Texas connection?
[00:17:21] Yeah.
[00:17:22] Uh, it's a great question.
[00:17:23] Um, yeah, there was definitely a lot of, uh, kind of technology companies in Dallas, kind
[00:17:31] of when I was growing up, uh, literally down the street from my house was a pretty big company
[00:17:36] called DSC.
[00:17:37] That was kind of a data systems, uh, type of company.
[00:17:41] And then, um, Ross Perot's company was like literally like, it was like across the field
[00:17:47] from my house.
[00:17:47] It was all very kind of close.
[00:17:50] And I had friends, parents that worked at like Ericsson and a bunch of other very, uh,
[00:17:55] you know, big tech companies.
[00:17:56] And so, yeah, um, for back in the nineties, definitely there was a pretty big hub of kind
[00:18:02] of technology there.
[00:18:03] Um, I think as this, as startups grew, um, they kind of tended to skew younger.
[00:18:10] Uh, like those companies were very kind of B2B businessy, right?
[00:18:14] Like, uh, kind of stodgy and old in a sense, but like with, with startups, you know, people
[00:18:19] want to go where, where it's cool.
[00:18:21] And, and Austin, um, is definitely a heck of a lot cooler than Dallas is.
[00:18:26] Uh, I will defend that till my dying day.
[00:18:29] Um, sorry, Dallas, but, um, yeah, but I mean, Austin's got a lot of, you know, cool
[00:18:35] things.
[00:18:36] Um, Texas in general is just a really good business environment.
[00:18:39] Um, you know, even in the past 10 years, you've seen a ton of huge companies just move
[00:18:45] there, um, for tax reasons, for whatever reasons, there's a lot of, uh, good universities in
[00:18:51] Texas, um, that we get a lot of good recruiting out of, um, Texas in general has just always
[00:18:57] been very kind of tech business friendly.
[00:19:00] And I think, um, you know, even, even back, you know, 30, 40 years ago, all the way until
[00:19:06] now, like you just see a lot of tech companies kind of migrate that direction.
[00:19:11] So before we move to your Georgia chapter, um, it brought up what you were just saying there
[00:19:16] brought up a question.
[00:19:17] I don't think we asked, but what, why did your parents choose to go to Dallas?
[00:19:22] Was it the business environment?
[00:19:24] Was there a travel connection there?
[00:19:26] That's a good question.
[00:19:27] I don't think I've ever asked them that.
[00:19:30] Um, I actually don't know.
[00:19:32] Um, yeah.
[00:19:34] So I think only my aunt lived in, it lived in Austin at the time.
[00:19:39] And so we did live with her for a little bit, but why they decided to move away from Austin
[00:19:44] to Dallas.
[00:19:45] I'm not really too sure.
[00:19:47] Interesting.
[00:19:48] Well, you can tell us why you decided to go from Dallas to Atlanta.
[00:19:52] Yeah.
[00:19:53] How did that come about?
[00:19:54] Yeah.
[00:19:55] So, um, there was, I came out here for college, uh, at Georgia tech in, in Atlanta.
[00:20:01] Um, and you know, it was one of those, um, I think one of those, I just wanted to kind
[00:20:09] of leave my comfort zone type of situations.
[00:20:11] Um, and, and I couldn't afford to live in California.
[00:20:14] So, um, Atlanta was kind of the middle ground there.
[00:20:18] Uh, came out here and just, I really just loved it.
[00:20:22] Um, really just loved the city, loved everything.
[00:20:25] Um, Georgia tech had the advantage of kind of being in the middle of a metropolitan city,
[00:20:31] like literally in the middle of the city.
[00:20:33] Um, and so, you know, just being able to, I've always kind of loved big cities and everything.
[00:20:40] And, uh, I just grew to love the city and the people here and the culture and everything.
[00:20:47] And, um, I just kind of found myself here, um, found myself with, you know, had started
[00:20:55] my career here, um, made a lot of good connections here.
[00:20:59] And yeah, this is kind of where, where I stayed put, but, um, you know, college was kind of
[00:21:04] my entry point into this.
[00:21:06] And so you have, I mean, computer science makes sense, but public policy.
[00:21:10] Yeah.
[00:21:11] Um, for, for a moment in time, younger, more naive college, George, uh, had this idea of going
[00:21:17] to law school, um, and wanting to do patent law.
[00:21:22] Um, I, I quickly discovered how much reading law school requires and that, that, uh, they'll
[00:21:31] probably turn me off that path a little bit.
[00:21:33] Um, I love reading, but man, uh, legal reading is a whole, whole different beast.
[00:21:40] It sure is.
[00:21:41] And I had to look this up.
[00:21:43] I'm always interested in periods of time for college and who you might've intersected with.
[00:21:49] Yeah.
[00:21:49] Were you into the basketball?
[00:21:50] Was Chris Bosch going there at the time?
[00:21:52] Chris Bosch was there.
[00:21:53] I think we overlapped for like about a year.
[00:21:55] Um, well he did cause he only went one year for a year.
[00:21:58] Yeah.
[00:21:58] Yeah.
[00:21:59] Um, while, while I was in school, I think that was the one year, one year that we made
[00:22:04] a pretty deep, uh, uh, NCAA tournament run, um, I think two, two into the final four for
[00:22:13] sure.
[00:22:13] I think into the finals, um, and then lost.
[00:22:16] Uh, but yeah, it was, uh, those, those were the years where, you know, I think the basketball
[00:22:24] team and the football team were pretty halfway decent.
[00:22:26] Um, Alvin Johnson was there when, when I was in school, that was, he was a lot of fun to
[00:22:33] watch in college, much less the NFL.
[00:22:35] So yeah, um, that was, that was a lot of fun.
[00:22:39] So you, um, you went there at what point did you decide not to do the law and to go into
[00:22:46] tech and how did you get your first job in tech?
[00:22:50] Um, I think, yeah, I think I, so the law thing, I think I went, I was really very much on the
[00:22:57] verge of going to law school.
[00:22:58] I took LSATs and everything, like by the law school.
[00:23:02] Um, I think it just decided it wasn't, it wasn't something I really wanted to do.
[00:23:08] And I didn't know if I wanted to accumulate a bunch of law school debt to do something that
[00:23:13] I didn't really want to do.
[00:23:14] Right.
[00:23:14] Um, so I told myself, all right, I'm going to try, you know, I've always loved technology.
[00:23:21] I'm going to try the technology thing.
[00:23:22] I'm going to be a software developer for a few years.
[00:23:24] Right.
[00:23:24] And I really hate it.
[00:23:26] Come back and revisit this law school thing.
[00:23:28] Um, so I, um, I joined a, a startup, um, kind of not long after out of school.
[00:23:37] And, uh, it was a consulting agency called Northridge.
[00:23:40] And it was probably the, I mean, it was an amazing experience.
[00:23:46] Uh, I had amazing fortune to work with incredible people, uh, really good people, uh, people who
[00:23:53] were very, um, kind of customer focused and customer oriented.
[00:23:59] Right.
[00:23:59] Um, it didn't feel like it was one of those kind of cutthroat, you know, money grabbing kind
[00:24:05] of agencies.
[00:24:05] Right.
[00:24:06] It was very much a, let's, let's take care of the customer and let's take care of our employees
[00:24:11] kind of places.
[00:24:12] And, um, you know, I learned a lot from not just the technology side, but really from our
[00:24:17] relationships side, um, as well in those experiences.
[00:24:21] Um, and even to this day, right.
[00:24:23] Like I still work with people that I met there, known there.
[00:24:28] Um, uh, I can't even tell you how many years ago that was, you know, 20, 20 years ago.
[00:24:35] Um, yeah.
[00:24:36] And so, um, yeah, it was, uh, I thought I would give it a go and try it and just kind of never
[00:24:44] left.
[00:24:46] And so what did, what did they do and what were your initial tasks?
[00:24:51] Yeah.
[00:24:51] Yeah.
[00:24:52] So I started as kind of a software developer, um, software engineer, uh, there, and it was
[00:24:56] just a digital kind of the fledgling digital agency.
[00:24:59] Uh, we did a little bit of everything, a lot of website work, um, basically, you know, like
[00:25:04] any good startup, it was whatever we can kind of get our hands on.
[00:25:07] Um, and so, uh, yeah, I did a lot of kind of initial website work a lot.
[00:25:13] And my first project was in, in classic ASP, which was a trip.
[00:25:18] Uh, and, um, but eventually I kind of moved on to ASP.net.
[00:25:23] And then for a while we were doing a lot of, uh, a lot of SharePoint work, um, which is going
[00:25:32] to sound crazy to some people, but we did a lot of public websites on SharePoint and, uh,
[00:25:37] uh, we got incredibly good at it, which is a skill that no one wants ever.
[00:25:44] Um, but yeah, so, but that's kind of where it all began was, you know, we did a lot of
[00:25:49] public website work on SharePoint.
[00:25:50] We really learned how to, um, kind of tame that platform.
[00:25:55] And, uh, after a while realized, you know, this isn't like, it's not a very good CMS platform.
[00:26:01] We really needed a, you know, if we're going to build public websites for customers, we should
[00:26:04] do it for on a platform that makes sense.
[00:26:07] Um, and so kind of wandered around like any good agency.
[00:26:11] We built our own CMS platform for, for a while.
[00:26:14] Um, yeah.
[00:26:15] And that's kind of how we wound up, uh, working with Sitecore, uh, eventually was, uh, was
[00:26:22] just kind of out of that space.
[00:26:23] It was just, uh, uh, an evolution of kind of the work that we were doing.
[00:26:28] Isn't it funny when you look at something like SharePoint, you used it to, as a CMS,
[00:26:34] and it makes you, everyone always says, what's the question?
[00:26:37] Why doesn't Microsoft have a CMS?
[00:26:39] Why doesn't Amazon have a, and it's fascinating when you look at it, that it opens up the space
[00:26:46] for something like a Sitecore.
[00:26:48] Yeah.
[00:26:48] And the feeling is they don't have it because it's an, it would be probably an antitrust step
[00:26:53] too far.
[00:26:55] And is it worth, is the juice worth the squeeze?
[00:26:58] Yes.
[00:26:59] Yeah.
[00:27:00] No, I, I mean, it's a really good point.
[00:27:02] And I feel like this, that space just moves so fast.
[00:27:06] Right.
[00:27:07] Like, um, and something like for Microsoft or, or, uh, you know, other large companies, I
[00:27:13] guess, other than Adobe, right.
[00:27:16] It's a lot of investment in for them to be able to kind of keep up with that space.
[00:27:21] Really?
[00:27:22] Yeah.
[00:27:22] And you, you kind of realize much like with generative AI crypto before it money really
[00:27:28] seems to be in the infrastructure that holds this stuff.
[00:27:32] Yeah.
[00:27:33] Or the chips.
[00:27:34] Yeah.
[00:27:35] Then in the actual system.
[00:27:37] Yeah.
[00:27:37] Oh yeah.
[00:27:38] Yeah.
[00:27:38] They're a whole Microsoft's whole move to cloud was, was pretty, pretty genius at the
[00:27:44] time.
[00:27:44] Like that was a really good strategy shift.
[00:27:48] Um, they were just like, we're all in on cloud and I think it's paid off for them.
[00:27:53] So you do, you do see when we're, I feel like I'm doing a job interview, George, but you
[00:27:57] do see in your CV that you were at Northridge, but tell me about Bibles for America for eight,
[00:28:05] eight months.
[00:28:06] Yeah.
[00:28:06] So, um, I was living out in California for a little bit of time.
[00:28:11] Um, and I was there with a, um, basically for, for a Bible school for a couple of years.
[00:28:16] It was just kind of two years I decided to take off and go live in California.
[00:28:21] And, um, so Bibles for America is this nonprofit organization that I met out there that, uh,
[00:28:25] basically their goal is just like, we're just going to be able to, we want to be able to
[00:28:30] put a Bible in everyone's hand for free.
[00:28:32] Right.
[00:28:33] And no other real kind of motivation other, other than that.
[00:28:37] Right.
[00:28:37] Um, so everything is very, they're nonprofit and it's all kind of donation driven.
[00:28:41] And, um, you know, it was, it was not only that, but the kind of the other side, you know,
[00:28:49] the secondary, uh, goal that they had was really helping people to understand it.
[00:28:54] So, um, you know, I, you know, I, I liked kind of what they were doing.
[00:28:59] I was basically there to help kind of volunteer for a while and, and kind of worked as a, uh,
[00:29:06] a developer for them for, for a period of time, just to be able to help them develop
[00:29:11] some kind of resources for the web or for that type of thing.
[00:29:17] And so things like reading schedules and explanatory things and everything was just, um, kind of
[00:29:23] a, uh, a resource hub of, um, uh, things to be able to supplement.
[00:29:28] So, so when someone receives their Bible, they're like, what do I do with this?
[00:29:32] Right.
[00:29:32] The, there's a whole kind of on a whole hub of online resources for them to be able
[00:29:37] to tackle something that was helping them work on for, I guess, about a year, give or take.
[00:29:44] Wow.
[00:29:45] So is it almost like a, a Amazon for Bibles or like, yeah.
[00:29:50] Minus the, the paying part.
[00:29:51] So the revenue.
[00:29:54] Yeah.
[00:29:55] Minus the, minus the revenue.
[00:29:56] Right.
[00:29:56] If you're a nonprofit Amazon for Bibles.
[00:29:59] Yes.
[00:30:00] Wow.
[00:30:01] All right.
[00:30:01] And so you, you know, you come back to what, what, what made you come back to Atlanta?
[00:30:07] Was it coming back to work with those people after you took a shot out West?
[00:30:12] Yeah.
[00:30:12] Yeah, it was, it was just kind of moving.
[00:30:14] I just felt like, you know, wanted to move back home to Atlanta.
[00:30:17] Yeah.
[00:30:18] And then I'll work or, you know, took that job with Northridge.
[00:30:24] Funny story.
[00:30:25] I actually was working with Northridge for a few months before I left for California.
[00:30:31] And then this kind of opportunity in California came up and I took it.
[00:30:35] And so I quit.
[00:30:37] Right.
[00:30:37] And, you know, it was only a few months in at the time and I felt kind of bad, but they're
[00:30:46] really understanding.
[00:30:47] And, you know, we left on really good terms, but, you know, I felt bad.
[00:30:52] But after I came back, I was looking for a job and I was just kind of applying and I was
[00:30:56] sending resumes out and everything.
[00:30:59] I guess it was just, it just happened that I had sent a resume over to Northridge without
[00:31:07] even realizing it or like it just kind of passed.
[00:31:10] I didn't pay enough attention to it, I guess.
[00:31:13] I had sent a resume out because it was a job opening.
[00:31:16] And so the CEO at the time, he called me and he was like, Hey, I'm heard you're looking for
[00:31:20] a job.
[00:31:20] How do you know this?
[00:31:22] Also, hi.
[00:31:23] Right.
[00:31:24] And he was like, yeah, I have your resume.
[00:31:26] Our HR people brought it to me.
[00:31:28] He's like, do you want your job back?
[00:31:29] Yeah, I would love it.
[00:31:31] It was just, you know, I would love to come back.
[00:31:35] And so that's how it happened.
[00:31:37] And I was there for forever.
[00:31:39] It feels like kind of including the acquisition about 13 years.
[00:31:45] It's really kind of where I cut my teeth.
[00:31:48] Got it.
[00:31:49] And so it was the acquisition by proficient.
[00:31:52] Yeah.
[00:31:53] The acquisition was by proficient about maybe five or six years in.
[00:31:58] Then was there for quite a few years after that.
[00:32:02] Another seven.
[00:32:03] Yeah.
[00:32:04] Another seven or eight.
[00:32:05] What was it like being part of an acquisition?
[00:32:09] It's another funny story, which is I was when the acquisition happened, I wasn't even in
[00:32:15] the country.
[00:32:16] So I was in Taiwan visiting family.
[00:32:19] And anyways, there was a call that was set up.
[00:32:24] There was like a, they called like an all hands to announce the acquisition and everything.
[00:32:29] And there was a call set up.
[00:32:31] And I joined late because it's completely different times.
[00:32:34] Right.
[00:32:35] And so I called in and I just hear this, like it was meeting was basically over.
[00:32:39] And I just hear the, this, like these random conversations.
[00:32:42] Some people were asking questions.
[00:32:43] Right.
[00:32:43] I'm trying to piece together what's, what's happening.
[00:32:46] Right.
[00:32:46] And meanwhile, I'm like texting someone and being like, Hey, what's going on?
[00:32:51] Right.
[00:32:51] And they're like, Oh, we were just acquired and all this stuff.
[00:32:53] And I was like, cool.
[00:32:56] So yeah, it was, it was a little, a little surreal, but also like, you know, I kind of
[00:33:04] wish I had been in the room when it, when it happened just to kind of get the feel of
[00:33:09] everyone.
[00:33:09] I think with any acquisition, there's always a lot of just uncertainty with kind of what's
[00:33:17] going to happen, especially, I think, especially with, with Northridge, we were just such a
[00:33:22] tight knit, close company.
[00:33:25] Like we weren't a huge company at the time.
[00:33:27] Everyone knew everyone, you know, we all hung out after work and, you know, this is, it was
[00:33:32] very much, you know, a very kind of close community.
[00:33:35] And then you're getting absorbed into this humongous company.
[00:33:38] We're at relatively humongous at the time.
[00:33:41] And you just kind of wonder what's going to happen.
[00:33:43] But, you know, again, like the leadership at that company at Northridge, very cognizant
[00:33:51] of this and, you know, took care of us all really well, made sure that the transition was
[00:33:57] smooth.
[00:33:57] They stayed on for quite a bit.
[00:33:59] And so it was a lot, it could have been a lot worse, I think is the short version of
[00:34:04] putting it.
[00:34:06] Yeah.
[00:34:06] And is that something that you, I mean, if it was in all hands, was, was there whispers?
[00:34:10] Was there anything that you could sense or was it just like, boom?
[00:34:13] I don't know.
[00:34:14] I was out of the country.
[00:34:15] I'd been out of the country for the whole week.
[00:34:17] And so, I mean, usually you can feel these things for a while.
[00:34:20] Yeah.
[00:34:21] I don't think anyone had any clue.
[00:34:23] It was very, very sudden.
[00:34:26] Like, it wasn't like the company was in dire straits or anything.
[00:34:28] Like, it was very kind of sudden.
[00:34:30] Like, we were doing really well and everything.
[00:34:32] And I think it was, yeah, I don't think anyone really could have called it.
[00:34:39] But yeah, it was, it was, it was definitely an interesting experience.
[00:34:44] You know, so Corey Smith, which a lot of people, a lot of people know in the psych work community.
[00:34:51] So we had, we had just hired him.
[00:34:54] Like, I remember interviewing him and everything.
[00:34:56] And then the acquisition happened and his first day, like he got hired for one company and his first day of work was for another company.
[00:35:04] And so, yeah, it was, it was, because his first day was like the day, the first day of the post acquisition.
[00:35:12] So, yeah, it was really, it was an interesting time.
[00:35:18] You still, you stayed a long time.
[00:35:21] Yeah, I did.
[00:35:22] So it, it aligned with your trajectory, what you hoped for yourself.
[00:35:29] Yeah, yeah.
[00:35:30] And I think mostly it was just the people I work with really just kind of kept me there.
[00:35:34] When you work with good people, it's, you know, it makes, it makes work easy.
[00:35:38] It makes kind of work life easy.
[00:35:41] And you just kind of want to hang around.
[00:35:44] It's, it's makes it a little tougher to leave sometimes.
[00:35:48] And so when that happens, you become like a practice lead, right?
[00:35:55] Is that essentially your practice?
[00:35:57] Is that Sitecore at that point?
[00:35:59] Yeah.
[00:35:59] Yeah.
[00:35:59] At the point of it was Sitecore.
[00:36:02] We kind of bounced around from different technologies, but, you know, as we were saying earlier, like at Sitecore, we just have to, we should just use a CMS, a proper CMS.
[00:36:11] And we kind of landed on Sitecore as that platform.
[00:36:15] So, you know, we were, we were kind of all in growing that practice.
[00:36:20] We didn't really, it was kind of fledgling at the time.
[00:36:23] And then just through, through hard work, we, we grew it over time.
[00:36:29] And the, so take us back to that time.
[00:36:34] Cause I think a lot of people today don't even realize that, that early part of that Sitecore community.
[00:36:40] Yeah.
[00:36:41] And it's still great, but like, it was, what was it like then as we have?
[00:36:46] Yeah.
[00:36:47] Yeah.
[00:36:48] I think actually might, might know better than I do here.
[00:36:52] But yeah, definitely the community was, I mean, it was, it was, so with other previous platforms, like SharePoint and stuff, like there were other, you know, where I was involved in some of those communities.
[00:37:04] But I feel like kind of starting to get into the Sitecore community at that time was just a, it was a different beast.
[00:37:11] I feel like there were definitely some of the smartest, like most intelligent, you know, most talented people I've ever met were out of the Sitecore community.
[00:37:22] And, you know, I think with, I think that's one of the things with the Sitecore community that's really stuck with me is there are so many good people, like just good, good people like heart wise, but also good people talent wise in that community that, you know, you can just learn so much from, you know, I feel like so much of what I've learned around Sitecore is from the community themselves.
[00:37:47] Right. It wasn't like me, you know, hiding in a corner, studying up on anything.
[00:37:52] I get, I got over the years, I just got so much help from the community.
[00:37:56] And so, yeah, I mean, back at that time, right, it was trying to join the community.
[00:38:00] Even here in Atlanta, there was a pretty large contingency of Sitecore partners and therefore kind of Sitecore community people went to my first kind of user group, Sitecore user group meeting here before even really working with Sitecore.
[00:38:14] Got to meet a lot of people there and it was, yeah, it was definitely a different feel and I could feel like it was a, you know, it was just full of really, really intelligent people.
[00:38:26] And that was my, that was my first kind of, you know, reflection on kind of meeting the community.
[00:38:33] It was like, well, there's a lot of really bright people here that I can learn from.
[00:38:36] It's my question time. Yeah. So you've, you've presented at a lot of user groups and stuff, right, George, what's your favorite Sitecore user group slash conference?
[00:38:48] Oh man. I've always loved being in Europe for the Sitecore user group conference, Europe. Those are just amazing. You know, like we talked about earlier, I love kind of being able to see other places and meet people in, you know, other, other countries.
[00:39:08] And just kind of having that experience to be able to do that in Europe is, was always, it was my favorite, just to meet people, especially people that they don't know or people that I've, you know, again, have only known through letters on a screen.
[00:39:21] Right. To kind of actually be able to meet them in person. So, yeah, I mean, all the user groups have been really amazing.
[00:39:30] You know, I love the ones that we do here in Atlanta, but, and I love Symposium just because everyone is there, but really to have a special place in my heart for, for those times I got to go to Europe for the Sitecore user group conference.
[00:39:45] So, George, you're a eight time Sitecore MVP, right? Can you take back to how you felt when you got that first one?
[00:39:52] Yeah. So, so the first one was, was the cloud MVP, which has,
[00:40:01] It has no downtime.
[00:40:03] Yeah. So that one gets an asterisk, I guess.
[00:40:08] But yeah, so that was, that was really interesting because that was a lot of kind of what I was doing was, you know, related to cloud and I guess what is now known as DevOps.
[00:40:21] And so kind of coming in from, from that direction was, it was really kind of interesting and, you know, did a lot of development work, but, but yeah.
[00:40:32] So the first time was really, was really humbling really, if anything else, it was just, you know, I had been part of the Sitecore community for some period of time, got to know a lot of MVPs like Aceh, right.
[00:40:47] At the time and really had a lot of respect for that, for that group.
[00:40:51] And so to be able to kind of affix my name to that, to that title was, was really humbling, right.
[00:41:00] Just to know that, Hey, you know, kind of in that kind of in that echelon, I think at the time I was joking, I was like, Oh, I want it.
[00:41:11] The only reason why I want to become an MVP is to be part of the MVP Slack channel.
[00:41:16] But, but, but really it was just to be able to have, you know, to, to, to really, yeah.
[00:41:24] It was just to be part of that group was just really, really amazing to me.
[00:41:28] And it was just, I couldn't even describe it.
[00:41:31] It was just, it was, it was a pretty big kind of pivotal point in my career.
[00:41:38] George, what are some of your hobbies now?
[00:41:41] Oh man, am I allowed to have hobbies now?
[00:41:44] So what do I do?
[00:41:49] Yeah, I think I read a lot now.
[00:41:52] Probably I've watched more Netflix than I should.
[00:41:58] And yeah, I try, I've been learning to play tennis for about the past year, which means I'm still really bad.
[00:42:07] Which actually that's, you know, having never really played sports my entire life, this is probably the first time I've enjoyed a sport, which has been really fun.
[00:42:17] I guess, I guess this was one of those, like your, your taste changes as you get older type of things.
[00:42:23] But being able to enjoy a sport has been an interesting new thing for me in my life.
[00:42:29] But yeah, I mean, I think mostly it's just in traveling.
[00:42:32] So trying to get myself to places that I've never been, see things that I've never seen.
[00:42:38] And it's tougher now when you have to do that with a family of four expense wise, but, you know, still trying to do that as best as we can.
[00:42:50] So I'm surprised you haven't gotten to pickleball here.
[00:42:53] You have to be the only person who started tennis in the last year who didn't do pickleball.
[00:42:57] I can't do it.
[00:42:58] I can't do it.
[00:42:59] The noise gets me.
[00:43:01] I can't do it.
[00:43:02] And also I have this, like, now I'm becoming one of those like tennis players where like pickleball people take over the tennis court and I'm just like give them sneers and dirty looks.
[00:43:11] Like I've become one of those people now.
[00:43:13] So I'm not, I think I'm banned from playing pickleball because of that.
[00:43:15] Just surely from an attitude perspective.
[00:43:20] George on that.
[00:43:22] So this MVP and a psych work kind of question, but I can tell I'm under, under NDA.
[00:43:27] So I'm not going to say anything about the contents of it, but I can tell that you are very protective about customers and your company.
[00:43:37] And, and it takes some guts to put out hard truths in a, in a channel sometimes, but I'm not asking you to speak on that.
[00:43:45] But I wonder as a practice lead, as someone who really focuses on, on psych or even as all these other solutions come out and everything's changing.
[00:43:57] How, how do you think about at this point, the, you know, whether it's been painful or there's been some drop steps over the preceding years.
[00:44:10] But when you look at where psych core is now with the composable elements, all in one coming from the old way, like kind of, how do you feel the state of the union here about?
[00:44:20] Yeah.
[00:44:21] Yeah.
[00:44:22] You both know I'm not one to, to, to mince words for this kind of thing.
[00:44:28] But in all honesty, I think it's, it's kind of a slow roll to, to the right direction.
[00:44:34] Right.
[00:44:35] I've spent a lot of time with, I mean, just as part of my role now with a lot of different kinds of MarTech with a lot of different vendors and just kind of the general marketplace of MarTech really.
[00:44:51] And, you know, there are, there are trends for sure of where things are going, definitely more of a SaaS, more of an API driven, you know, kind of the fitting into this idea of a mock architecture.
[00:45:04] Right.
[00:45:06] But, you know, I think, and I think psych core is headed that way.
[00:45:10] Right.
[00:45:10] It's, it's, it's getting there.
[00:45:12] It's there.
[00:45:12] They're trying.
[00:45:13] It's a, it's a slow roll.
[00:45:15] Right.
[00:45:15] It feels like it's just kind of steering this giant ship.
[00:45:19] You know, definitely.
[00:45:20] Are there things that they could probably do better?
[00:45:23] Probably.
[00:45:24] Are there things that they could focus on more than others?
[00:45:27] Yes.
[00:45:28] But I think, you know, all in all, they're headed towards a direction that, you know, is the correct direction given kind of the trends of all the MarTech vendors out there today.
[00:45:40] That being said, I think, you know, like any good, like, like all MarTech in the space, right?
[00:45:49] Speed becomes an essence, being able to deliver features and functionality and kind of maintain, maintaining feature parity with, with competitors in a, in a timely fashion becomes, becomes really important.
[00:46:03] Right.
[00:46:04] Because, you know, I'll speak from experience that, you know, it's, it's really easy.
[00:46:10] There's a lot of competition out there, right?
[00:46:12] In the space, especially in kind of the CMS content management space.
[00:46:17] And, you know, it's, it's something to be aware of.
[00:46:21] And, you know, back early on, you know, you had a few kind of big names and then you kind of had the little guys.
[00:46:27] I think that that playing field's evening out and the kind of the head-to-head competition for Sitecore, that list has grown over time.
[00:46:38] And so it's being able to push that differentiator of, you know, Y Sitecore over X, Y, Z, A, B, C.
[00:46:46] That's really going to be important.
[00:46:47] And, and being able to do so in a timely manner, because a lot of these companies are smaller, they're more agile, they're able to deliver sooner and being able to, from a, from a marketing perspective, be able to, to claim things that, you know, that for Sitecore, they've got to have an answer for.
[00:47:06] So, George, what does the word community mean to you?
[00:47:11] Yeah.
[00:47:12] Yeah.
[00:47:12] I think for me, it's just a group of people that you could have kind of open and honest conversations with, right?
[00:47:20] Because that community inherently, it's a group of people who have had kind of similar experiences, similar, you know, similar interests, but similar struggles.
[00:47:33] And it's a, so just inherently this, a community is a, a group of people who you already have a kind of, a common foundation.
[00:47:42] And so because of that common foundation, to me, you're able to have these open and honest conversations with people, right?
[00:47:49] Knowing that there's no, you know, normally there's no ill will or anything like that.
[00:47:54] It's, it's coming kind of almost from a sense of shared experience and sometimes in a sense of shared trauma, but it's, it's, you know, it's knowing that these people who you're talking to will understand what you're talking about.
[00:48:08] Right.
[00:48:09] And, you know, and, and for some people in the community, that's, it's a little bit more for some, you know, they're still kind of early on and maybe not every, a little bit less, but they have some amount of, they have some amount of context to be able to understand that.
[00:48:24] And to me, like the community is only as strong as the people, you know, it almost goes without saying the community is only as strong as kind of the people who are invested into the community.
[00:48:36] Right.
[00:48:37] If you just have a group of people, there's like, yeah, we all like something.
[00:48:41] It's, it's, it's not much of a community.
[00:48:45] It's a, it's a fan club.
[00:48:46] Right.
[00:48:46] But really a community is kind of being able to invest and being able to have those conversations and, and poke the bear a little bit.
[00:48:52] And, and, and, you know, and be able to share kind of both the good and the bad and be able to help each other grow kind of out of this shared experience on top of this common foundation that everyone already has.
[00:49:07] George, if you were to go back and counsel your 15 year old self on some advice, what would you tell him?
[00:49:15] Oh man.
[00:49:16] I have so much.
[00:49:18] Just don't be an idiot.
[00:49:19] Um, but really, I think the biggest piece is just don't worry.
[00:49:26] And I still struggle with this.
[00:49:27] Like I have to tell this to my 41 year old self, which is don't, um, don't think so much about what people think about you.
[00:49:35] You know, it doesn't really matter that much at the end of the day.
[00:49:39] Like sometimes it feels like it's the biggest thing in the world, but really, you know, it's, it's really not.
[00:49:48] Um, I think as long as, you know, having the confidence to know that what you're doing is, is right.
[00:49:54] And, um, being able to kind of back it up, um, and, you know, putting your best effort forward and making sure that all your bases are covered.
[00:50:06] Right.
[00:50:06] That's all you can do.
[00:50:07] Um, and if someone doesn't like it or, you know, someone has a problem with it, then, you know, there's only so much you can do in controlling how other people perceive things.
[00:50:17] You know, they, some people have their own agenda, some people have their own things and some, and you just have to understand that sometimes it just doesn't really matter.
[00:50:27] You just have to like what, what others think just it's, you know, it's, it's not that big of a deal.
[00:50:35] It's not the end of the world.
[00:50:36] If, uh, if, uh, you know, someone's not happy with you for a particular thing or, um, you know, someone judges you a certain way.
[00:50:46] Um, yeah, it's at the end of the day, as long as you know, you, you, me have, have confidence in yourself and what you're doing.
[00:50:58] That's awesome.
[00:50:59] George, thank you so much for your time.
[00:51:01] Yeah, of course.
[00:51:02] Thank you all.
[00:51:03] This was a lot of fun, a lot of fun to chat.
[00:51:07] Thank you for entering the Conoverse.
[00:51:09] We hope these discussions gave you something to think about, helped you learn something new.
[00:51:14] And provided a window into someone else's story.
[00:51:18] Everyone's story is worthy and important.
[00:51:21] Until next time, remember to be fair, be kind, and keep exploring.
[00:51:26] Thank you.