Derek Dysart is a Sitecore/CMS platform consultant and a Sitecore MVP. Derek talks about changing careers from Technology to Voice-Over acting, COVID-19 challenges, advice to his younger self, and much more.
Akshay Sura
Welcome to the Konaverse podcast. This is Akshay Sura,
Matthew McQueeny
and this is Matt McQueeny.
Akshay Sura
And with us today is Derek Dysart. I've known Derek for quite a long time. And Derek is recently moving away from the tech field into the voiceover field. And we thought we could have a nice long chat with him about quite a few things. So how's it going? Derek?
Derek Dysart
Yes, great to be here.
Matthew McQueeny
Yeah, I think it's probably somewhat intimidating for people like Akshay and I to be doing a audio cast with a voiceover
Akshay Sura
voiceover guy.
Matthew McQueeny
And we're joking on that. But Derek, when you do like a conversational show, like this, or a radio show versus doing voiceover, is it? Is it like different, like muscles? Or how you go about doing it?
Derek Dysart
Yeah, I mean, so this is, I mean, this is just me here, you know, and we're having a conversation. And, but like, a lot of times in voiceover, I mean, it's voice acting, right. So whether I'm doing an audio book there, I'm you know, even even if it's a nonfiction book, I'm acting as the narrator, that, you know, is the subject expert, of, you know, right now, I've actually got a book and production on that's targeted at business owners, and kind of like the danger zone that get in, in growth. So like, this is, it's written by a business consulting firm. And I need to act like, I know everything about this book, you know, are you on the subject matter, Matt, on the subject matter expert there that, um, you know, understands all that, and, you know, someone would come comes to me, and some of it, I understand. And I think the reason I get a lot of work like that is, is because I have the passion for that subject matter. But in the end, I don't know how to run a huge business and why entrepreneurs kind of hit this danger zone or, or if it's a fiction book, you know, if it's, you know, I'm, I need to play the part of all the other characters in there. And similarly, in a commercial, you know, almost every commercial audition I get, is going to have some sort of direction. Like, hey, this is conversational, and you're a knowledgeable about herbicide or whatever the commercials for you know, like, you know, somebody that lives and breathes pizza, for this pizza, commercial or something. So, it's a little bit different. You know, a lot of it is a lot of is, is similar, because the best advice I've gotten from an acting standpoint is, you know, trust the script and just be you. And so the script kind of helps dictate that, but yeah, I mean, especially in an audio book with a bunch of different characters, you do kind of have to play the different characters in there.
Akshay Sura
So does does the client work with you then like the, you know, like how, like in when they're shooting video, and like, you know, I'm not feeling this from you, or the director tells you, right, like, so how does like when you're doing an audio book, or a commercial? Does this script, put it in a way like, you know, everything? Or is there like a retake when the customer says, you know, what, Derek, in this part of the book, I didn't feel like you were scared enough, what I'm just giving an example.
Derek Dysart
Depends on the production. So I've done a lot of a lot of most of the audio books that I've done, in fact, all of the audio books I've done have been independent production. So they're independent authors, or they're very, very small publishing houses. And I'm hired as the producer. So I, you know, and I'm required to self direct. So a lot of times, I'll produce like, the first 15 minutes of it. So the, in an audio book parlance, it's the rights holder, because not all the time, you know, not every time does the author have the the audio rights, said they may have sold those off to someone else. But they get a say on that first 15 minutes to be like, you know, hey, are these characters playing out how you thought and so forth? And then you know, that they sign off on it, they're on a larger production if it was, you know, with with a larger publishing house, a lot of times you will have a director that will be like, you know what, no, that didn't sound you know, they'll give you direction that way. That's, that's rare because it's expensive.
Akshay Sura
Yeah, I can imagine but I guess
Derek Dysart
Yeah, you got you get that direction. And then on a commercial, it depends, you'll have some commercials that are directed. So you know, I'm set up the, in the, in the, the audio production world, there's a couple of different products, like we're talking on Zoom right now. But in that world, there's two ones called IP DDL. And the other one is called source Connect. And there are high fidelity, like zero latency, audio connections. So basically, I'm, I'm talking on the microphone here into my computer, but that's going over and there's a sound engineer in some production studio, that's got me on a channel strip. And, and then you'll have, you know, the people that are, you know, a lot of times it's the buyer, it'll be the creative director for the commercial, or one of the art director there, that's, you know, saying things of like, No, no, no, say it, like, it's a one whole complete thought. And there's a couple actually funny videos where I think it's a, you know, it's back in back kind of pre COVID, you'd be in it, you'd be in a studio, and you're, you're in the isolation booth, and then you can see through the window, but unless they have the talkback mic on, you can't see and, you know, they're talking and from the, from the viewpoint of the voice actor, they don't know what they're talking about, you know, and they're just like saying, like, well, maybe we should have salad for lunch, do you want to go, we should order that. And they're thinking like, you know, she's getting frustrated, because like, all they don't like it. And then like, after, like, 20 minutes of like, all this stuff. They're like, hey, it sounds great. We're done. So, so yeah, it totally, it totally depends it, but a lot of the work I do is is self directed. So it does come down to me. And it's open to my interpretation.
Matthew McQueeny
So, Derek, they always talk about as a writer, right, that you get writer's block. As someone who's speaking, writing, is there an equivalent, almost where you get like, you have a day where it's just taking you twice as long to get through the thing? Or you almost just give up that day? Like how do you even set your days up? Because it's your very in your own head? Right?
Derek Dysart
Yeah, it's, um, I'm still figuring that out. You know, I've had to fit this in where I could. So it's like, I didn't have the luxury of, you know, being like, Huh, it's not a good day. There, you know, and there's been days where I'm just like, my voice is not into it, I feel like you're either congested or something. And like, if I if I read this chapter of this audio book, it's going to sound different than the rest of them. So, you know, I may, I may take that day off, then, you know, in terms of writer's block, and all that, typically, I'm reading from a script. So you know, I know what I need to say, you know, I go back to when I was doing podcasts, especially solo ones, you know, when it was just me those, those are the hardest ones to do. Because you're just like, Oh, wait, am I rambling? No, I am rambling again. And, and that was why I always preferred, you know, recording, recording interviews, because if you have conversations like this are a lot more fun. I think there are at least they're more interesting to me, because I don't know if I'm engaging enough for someone to -
Akshay Sura
You are. I got a question for you. So I know I've told you a couple of times, I think you have a beautiful radio voice. There's no denying that, right. So when was the first time either you figured that or someone mentioned it? Like Could you tell us like when is the first time you're like, Hey, you know, I do have a nice voice.
Derek Dysart
Yeah, so it's, it's interesting. I mean, kind of like how did I get into voiceover I go back to like, when I was in college, I was on the radio. At I went to the Milwaukee School of Engineering, they have a radio station. They're one of the few community licenses in the Milwaukee area. And I you know, I ultimately was on I was on during Thursday afternoon drive times towards the end, and loved it. And you know, I love you know, I have passion for music and moved on from there. Fast forward. I had I can't remember I was at one of the Sitecore symposiums just thinking I'm like, I was super into podcasts at the time. And it was it was early. I was not super early on. I think you talk to anybody that's like really early in podcasts. And it's probably like 2006, I think was when Apple started supporting podcast in iTunes, when that was actually when it was literally, it was downloading the mp3 and it would sync onto your iPod. And then you would hit you know, you'd have to do that. And then you can listen to all of them. And that was back when like I think was Adam Curry was a famous one that that started that. But I you know, I so this is probably I want to say 2010, 2012. You know, I was like I was a huge consumer of podcasts. I was like I should do one for Sitecore and I just sat on the idea forever and never made it happen. And then it was I'd have to look I want to say it was 2012, 2016, maybe that I launched, I launched Core Sampler, which was a podcast for the Sitecore community. And I just, you know, I'm like, you know, I'm just gonna do this, I did a bunch of research, bought a USB mic and, you know, did some research on like, how to record Skype conversations and in a little bit of audio editing, and then how do I, you know, how do I get a podcast into it, if you weren't in iTunes, then it wasn't anywhere.
And so that was where I got into that. And then, you know, I think I got that got a lot of notice in that Sitecore community to the point where Sitecore themselves actually approached me, and I ended up, what year was that, was it 2018? I produced six episodes for them, of a branded podcast that really didn't go anywhere. But as I was doing it, and they paid me for it, I was having lunch with a friend of mine. And I was like, God, I love this audio stuff. It's just this is infinitely more interesting to me. Then, then then doing the software work, I mean, the software work was was fulfilling, but I was just like, this is this is a lot of fun. I wish I wish I could get paid to do this. And he was actually a web developer, kind of a front end guy worked on a lot of stuff and, and his but his degree was in filmmaking. And he had kind of decided, like, I know exactly how you feel I you know, I, I took a pay cut to go back into filmmaking. And he started doing kind of documentary style, corporate videos. So like a lot of stuff for like, like, Make A Wish Foundation and stuff like that. But he's like, I get I get hit up by voiceover artists all the time. He's like you, you know you, you've got a decent voice, you know how to record things. And you should really look into that. And so he was kind of the impetus of like, oh okay, this, this is a thing. I started doing a ton of research on it. And one of the one of the tropes, it's funny, you mentioned it Akshay is, a lot of people kind of be like, I want to get into voiceover people say I have a good voice. And you need a ton more than that you need to be able to, you need to be able to act. And I don't, I don't have an acting background. But as I got through it, but I've, I was like, I'll give it a shot. And I think what what came through is like, I don't have an acting background. But I've always been, I've always found myself to be a good storyteller. And really, that's kind of the root of it. So I did a bunch of research. And one of the easiest things, one of the easiest paths, I guess to get started was Audible, which is owned by Amazon, and is kind of the audiobook juggernaut out there, they have a website called the audiobook Content Exchange, it's ACX. And you know, if you've ever written a book, and then published it via the Kindle Store, you're an independent author. And so you can go there. And say, I want to produce this as an audio book and get connected with narrators. And you can put up a title for audition. And I started auditioning for books and eventually got one and got another one. And I've done. I think I'm on my, like, 65th one now. And I've been gone for like, two and a half years. So some of them are short, I think the longest one I've done is was was eight hours, eight hours finished. But um, but yeah, that's where I got to start. And then, you know, in getting plugged in, a lot of it comes down to you need a demo. So basically, it'll, you know, demonstrate kind of this is what a commercial read I would do sounds like, I have an E learning demo for kind of, you know, internal training, corporate training. And I did you know, there are people out there that produce those. And so I worked with them, and I'm constantly working with voiceover coaches, just to make sure that my my sound is is to the standard that, you know, it's, I don't sound like a 1940s radio announcer because if you if you watch TV and watch, or listen to the radio and listen to any of those ads, that that isn't, that isn't a thing. And even over the past year, the kind of a nature of advertising changed quite a bit. It was you can go a year ago, right at the start of COVID. It was like oh, in these trying times. And then we're not. Yeah. And then it's um, you know, even then you look at that. So like, you mentioned that in a world that's that famous, famous voiceover artist. His name is Don LaFontaine. And he did all those movie trailers, but you look at movie trailers now there's no there's no talking in it. There's just at the end like rated R. You know, that's, that's all. That's the only kind of announcing part otherwise, it's all just like clips from the movie. So that's kind of a long answer to how did I get started and this is, I just had, you know, I was doing the podcast, somebody paid me to produce a podcast for them, and was just like, Man, I wish I could do this full time and And the rest has been just grinding and figuring out how to make it work.
Matthew McQueeny
So kind of two questions similar but one Do you still like podcasts? Which ones do you listen to? And two, it doesn't sound like it's that many years ago that you actually started getting into the gear and figuring out how to do this. What's that evolution been like?
Derek Dysart
Yeah, so I still listen to a ton of podcasts. In fact, I have my phone, I was listening to something earlier. I really liked the, in fact, I'll tell you when I was listening to you before The Talk Show with John Gruber. So they kind of cover a lot of the Apple ecosystem. I've listened to him back when you know is him in and Dan Benjamin on the five by five networks. Dan, I have listened to Dan Benjamin and Merlin man's back to work. That's a that's another really good tech podcast, trying to think what else is on here I really got in one. And it's just like, it's popular because I know they just they just signed a deal with Spotify is Dak Shepherd's podcast is you know, he's, he's an amazing interviewer. And, and he is something that I think I ended up being is like, in order to be a really good interviewer. And I've heard several people that are pointing to like, either you look at like the Howard Stern's or the or the Terry Gross of the world. In order to get people to open up you you have to be vulnerable. And I think Dax Shepard is really good at that. But like just being like, Hey, you know what, I'm Yes, I'm a famous movie star. Married to just this amazing, even more famous movie star, but he's just kind of like, you know, I, I was, my mom had I had five step dads, and you know what i? I went through AA and I've been sober for 16 years. And then he came out and he's like, no one I actually relapsed. And so he's just that. It's really interesting. I think he's really good. I'm trying to think what else there's a bunch. There's a few NPR podcasts I just enjoy. I enjoy the planet money series. They kind of talk about economics and economic news.
Matthew McQueeny
Which podcast app do you use?
Derek Dysart
I use Overcast on iOS. So So yeah. And then I listened to the accidental tech podcast. So the developer of overcast as Marco Arment. I listened to him back when he was with Dan Benjamin on build and analyze. And then on the accidental tech podcast. John Siracusa used to have a podcast on the five by five network called hyper critical. And if you want to geek like completely geek out on a technology thing, go back and listen to he didn't like a two or three part series on file systems of just like the most esoteric thing, but he's just like going by it took me back to engineering school and just like, all the stuff that goes on behind file systems, it was um, so that's if you go search out the hypercritical episodes that they got to be from, like 2012 or so. But they're amazing, but I mean, I think I've got I've probably got like 120 on listen to episodes in overcast right now.
Matthew McQueeny
They're probably 120 on listen to shows. That's the problem with podcasts, right? It's like, Yeah, and that's what they need.
Derek Dysart
Oh, man, that sounds that sounds good. And yeah, there's I mean, the other one, I will say from, from a production standpoint, I'm kind of a Disney nerd. And there's a there's a man named Lumajello that does WDW radio. And he basically does nothing but basically talk about Walt Disney World. And they're amazingly done. And I've listened to his whole back catalogue. I think he's on like, 600 like Episode 600 now, but in just even the progression there he got the eye of the Disney corporation is like interviewed, like really famous people within Disney, whether they're like Imagineers, or people associated with the park or people that used to run the park and stuff like that. So it's another really good podcast, you kind of have to be a Disney nerd to enjoy it. But yeah, it's I still I still listen to podcasts more than more than anything else more than music or anything on time. I have music on in the car sometimes because somebody else's in the car.
Matthew McQueeny
That's true. And the gear thing, I had two big questions there. So how your gear evolution started?
Derek Dysart
I started out with it was an audio technica ATR 2100. So it's a it's a USB microphone. I've got three of them now. And the reason I got it was is like I didn't want to spend a ton of money on it. I think I paid 60 bucks for it when I bought it.
Matthew McQueeny
It's a great mic.
Derek Dysart
And, and it's a USB, so I didn't need like an audio interface and all that. But you can also hook it up to an XLR interface, which is kind of what normal mics connect to. And so that's where I got my start. Then I, when Sitecore hired me to do that, that podcast, they were like you're going to you're going to be interviewing up to three or four people. So that's when I actually went out I bought it was a Focus right 18, 9, 20 or 20. So it's got four mic inputs and and you know, I set up in Orlando with four mics and I actually use the ATR 2100s. But I plugged into there to record four different tracks XLR. Yeah, yeah. So then I could then I could EQ each of them, so they sounded okay. So that's what I did there. I have that interface still on my old computer. And I have a shotgun mic hooked up to it. And I use it for like, all my zoom meetings, because I'm still doing technology work through the end of this month. And so everybody on these, like, zoom meetings are like, wow, you have really good sound and like that it's like a Hollywood shotgun mic above the camera here. And then ultimately, when when I wanted to get better at it, I upgraded to I upgraded to its dynamic or not a dynamic, it's a it's a large diaphragm condenser mic. It's made by a small company called CAD. It's an E 100S, I did, I looked at a whole bunch of stuff. And it's interesting, you get into voiceover and people will geek out, over and over about gear. And I finally, like I'm coming from the tech world is something I can easily see myself doing. And finally, I was just like, you know what, you get something, unless just like record stuff, and then you can upgrade it later. And so I've had this this mic I've had for probably two years now. And it served me well.
Akshay Sura
Nice. So Derek, you know how like, depending on the type of professional you are, so if you're JLo, you want to ensure you're behind your searches, you want to ensure your hands, right? Is there like insurance for voiceover when you have like a sore throat? You miss a gig or you?
Derek Dysart
Yeah, I don't know, if there is I don't know, you know, like, I try and take good care of myself and stay hydrated. And, and, and do that, you know, there there might be. But yeah, I don't I don't really do anything special around there other than just try and stay healthy. And try not to get you know, get a cold or allergies or anything like that.
Matthew McQueeny
COVID is probably been good for that. Right? Because we're inside, we're not really getting as sick as we did in the past.
Derek Dysart
It's good and bad. It I think there was a lot of actors, a lot of on camera actors and stage actors that all sudden, were out of work. And everybody's like, I can record from home. And so a lot of a lot of sites where I get auditions, just saw this massive, massive influx of people and just even message boards, where people kind of like, Hey, I'm new, what kind of microphone do I buy? What kind of, you know, what should I do? I have a good voice, you know, and it was, it started to calm down. Because I think it's just a lot of just like, stay the course and be a professional and and you'll, you know, you'll make it right. And know that, like you're auditioning for a lot of stuff. And a lot of times you can't take it personally like if you didn't get the job because maybe you weren't the right voice. I mean, think of think of iconic movie roles and be like, well, how come somebody else didn't get, you know, like Mark Hamill and Star Wars? Like, how come? They didn't have like, I don't know Kurt Russell play him or something like that. You can't You can't imagine that that would have been a good fit. And that's the case for like, a lot of these commercials or a lot of these. A lot of these other productions. Like, you know what? My voice? My voice is mine. And it's unique. And it doesn't fit everything. You know, I probably shouldn't narrate like kids books or something. It's although, you know, I read to my kids a ton, but you know, there's stuff that I my voice is probably not suited to.
Akshay Sura
Yeah. So you alluded to this a little while ago, Derek, so you made a choice. You've been in technology for a long, long time. Voiceover is something new, compared to the rest of your career is pretty short. But you've chosen to completely give 100% of your effort into voiceover. Could you talk to us about what led you up to that? What what are you hoping for? And what's your safety net? If, if that doesn't work out?
Derek Dysart
Yeah. Um, it's been it's been a long time coming. I think at the beginning of this year, I really, you know, took a look at it. Like I really, you know, I enjoy voiceover I enjoy voiceover a ton. I was still you know, and still am working in the Sitecore world. And it's just it's not, it's not floating my boat anymore, I guess is kind of the way to do it. I've been working on the Sitecore platform since 2009. So what is that almost 12 years. I think it's actually 12 years in July. I think July of 2009 was the first project I was on. I've been I've been doing professional software development since I was 16. You know, my dad had a small manufacturing distribution company. Had an accountant that wrote their own, effectively wrote their own ERP. And so I worked there helping to you know, do screens or write reports from this or use the use a progress database on Unix is actually not Linux, it was actually system five Unix. And that was where I got my start, went off to college, went to engineering school decided, you know, like, I don't want to do I.T. And realize, like, I don't know, if I want to do computer engineering and got a job straight out of college with, with an IT consulting firm Capgemini and have been doing I.T consulting since the mid 90s. So it's been, it's been a long career. And over the past few years, it's just like, I remember being young in my career and, and like, when the web came out in the web started picking up like, was really cool, and just getting getting excited over technology for technology's sake. But also with an eye towards, you know, this is going to solve these business issues or these problems. And, you know, lately, it's just I'm not there, you know, it's, if you look at, like, Sitecore, is changing this technology platform. And it's, you know, I'm like, you know, I could I can move on to something else. Quite honestly, when I was getting into Sitecore, I had been doing .NET development. I was at Microsoft, when .NET came out, and it was, you know, one of those, like, how do I want to do this anymore, am but I really like doing the web, and it Sitecore was, was a great way for me to take that skill set and, and kind of pivot into doing, you know, I love doing marketing websites, and I love to kind of helping companies, you know, show their, you know, get their message out and make it easy. You know, the classic thing was, you know, technology was hard for people. So it was such a great platform for people to manage their websites, a content management system. So to make somebody that's not technical, be able to manage your website that was that was fulfilling to me. And now it's just looking at, do I want to shift and learn the new technologies? Or do I want to, you know, there's this new thing that I want to do, you know, and I look at is like, is this something I can do well into retirement. So this is kind of semi semi retiring? You know, in terms of how do we, you know, can I can I make it work? And what was the decision? Like, it's, it's, there's no why it's, it's going to be a huge pay cut. And my wife and I looked at it very, you know, long and hard and looked at our budget and said, Hey, you know, what, let's look, she could tell, I just want, you know, my passion wasn't there for work. And, you know, whether I was complaining about it or not, it was, she's just like, you need, you need to give this a shot. So, I'm giving it a shot, I'm jumping, I was hoping to have had a lot more revenue coming in from the voiceover work, but I also am seeing that, like, you know, the day job of working on these, these, these, you know, on the projects that I was working on, just was making it so I couldn't I didn't have the time to dedicate to actually build that business out whether it's, you know, doing direct marketing, or, you know, in the audio book world, I want to move more into working with publishers or there's there's also the ability of, you know, not every book, not every author knows about ACX and puts it up for puts it up for audition. So, you know, doing market research and finding the author's where, you know, what, you've got a great title here, let's produce it as an audio book. I just didn't have the time for it. And or if I did, it was in your nights and weekends. And, you know, at the end of the day, I'm just tired. And you know, I know I'm not giving 100% to it. So, you know, we looked at we looked at it long and hard and we have a cushion built up and we're gonna give it a go.
Matthew McQueeny
Derek from a career standpoint, I think this very transition this paradigm in you know, in your life and career is really interesting. Where you kind of come to the podcast and you enjoy it, then it moves to voiceover and it's kind of a moonlighting thing right like as you have your day job like when was kind of the aha moment where you went Whoa, I can maybe not there right now but I think I can do this and like, what was the path to getting here like?
Derek Dysart
I there was there's two points that I remember I remember the first time when I started the podcast and you know I got everything recorded got it mastered I can't remember what it was what I was hosting that podcast on to start with eventually moved over to Fireside but the first time I like my voice appeared in Overcast, I was just like, holy crap. Like, you know, I've got a podcast here. And it's funny, one of my early guests was Martina Wehlener. And she was the same way she was just like, oh my god, I can't believe I'm actually on a podcast. It's It's so that that was probably the first time I think the realization was probably you know, I look back to I look back to last year I had a right around when the lockdown came I had a I had a healthcare client. And it's that from a business standpoint, the healthcare industry got hit hard. Early on in COVID. A lot of and a lot of people are like, What do you mean, this is just a health crisis. And the challenge was, is that they had to cancel a bunch of elective procedures. And those you know, those elective procedures are what fun most of the rest of the business. And so I got let go from that project, along with a bunch of other people I spent most of most of last summer not working. And my wife, my wife's on the healthcare field, general medical prostate, she had to shut down as well. And so we had no income last for about six months last year. And but it was, you know, it was the time of doing the like, what do we really want to do with our time? And what do we really want? What kind of life Do we want. And so it was a long, hard look at that we actually switched financial advisors at the time, and they put us through a couple kind of personality exercises in terms of like, what matters most to you. So it was it was kind of interesting, like these, these people, you know, when they build your financial plan, it's not just, oh, you're you're in your late 40s. And you have a risk tolerance of this, we'll put you in this x percentage of stocks, x percentage of bonds, and they were good, they really, you know, they got us set up of working on a budget and actually, you know, planning our cash flow. And over, you know, over the past few months, we kind of looked at where, where our money is going and where it where it's, you know, where it's coming from, where it's going. And, you know, is it is it buying us the happiness we want. And so it was a lot of conversations like that. So it wasn't like, I can't really say there was an aha moment. But I remember sitting down, I joked with other people I was like, other than the no income part that the not working part last summer was actually kind of nice, I got a ton of stuff done around the house, because it was like, we thought we were going to be moving. So I did a ton of like, just home improvement, we had a whole bunch of we had a whole bunch of dead trees that needed to come down. So I, you know, I learned how to cut down trees and bought a chainsaw. And, and it was it was a lot of it was very fulfilling. But ultimately, out of the exercise we did with the financial planners, we looked at kind of the life we want. And now we put everything through a lens of you know, is this is this moving us closer to or further away from the life that we want. And that was, so it was probably three weeks ago, you know, my wife came in, and she's just like, you know, when I if she just got done with a walk and was like, you know, what, this is, you know, the Sitecore work you're doing now is not moving us closer to the life we want, you know, you, you need to quit this, and you need to go full time. So, so yeah, I can't say there was a there was an aha moment, but it was, um, you know, is a gradual process of just, you know, some introspection between the two of us. And we looked at the income we had, and we looked at our savings and, you know, I worst case, I can go back to developing software, and you know, hopefully, hopefully, the paradigm doesn't shift too much. And, you know, if everything kind of flames out, and I'm back doing this in a year, hopefully somebody wants a C sharp coder that knows how to write web pages. And it's
Akshay Sura
Yeah, so I think you and I have kept in touch quite a bit in the last year. And I know that you guys as a family had gone through quite a bit of unexpected tough times. So for me what was most surprising and you know, this already is just like how the healthcare client right? It was a surprise to you and I? Yeah, both. And we found out about the elective, elective surgeries. And then what was more surprising to me is your wife was a doctor, in the middle of a pandemic, having to lay lay people off, shut down the practice and herself look for a job to me. I mean, until that point in my until, if it wasn't someone close, like you telling me that I wouldn't have believed it if I just read it somewhere. Because for me, I'm like, oh, you're a doctor, we're in the middle of a pandemic. You're busy, you are needed, right? Like so. You guys went through that you were thinking about, you know, moving to Vegas, just you know, just whatever works. And again, you have kids there in all stages of life. There's a lot going on, like how did you guys manage? You know, while it was obviously tough on both of you, but at the same time, you guys are thinking about the kids, as a family. Could you like give us an insight of what was it like what was the dialogue like what did you guys had to do extra in order to maybe clue in the kids give them a voice things like that?
Derek Dysart
Yeah, I mean, I've always had the you know, it was I met my wife, when she was an undergraduate and was with her through med school. And watching her go through med school made me realize like nobody just kind of fakes their way into being a doctor. It is it is really freakin hard work. You know, I watched her study for all the exams, they have to take I watched, you know, in she was she did a residency, and, you know, midway through her residency, they passed a law limiting medical residents to only 120 hours per week, you know, that that fact that they required a law, you know, and do that, you know, like, we work in tech, and, you know, you might do a 70 or 80 hour week, and you're like, oh, my god, that was just like, okay, tack another 40 hours on top of that. And they were doing more. So it's just like, you know, I've watched her kind of bust her ass on that. And, you know, I always told her like, hey, do this, if you if you like it, you know, it's, you know, obviously, we're incredibly privileged, you know, it's, it's both of us are in professions that that pay rather well. So I know, I say this from a position of great financial privilege, but you got to know why. You got to know why you're doing it. And I said, there are people that make a whole lot less than us that are happier, a whole lot less. And not only that they are they're also raising a family of five. And they're happy, you know, and so it's, it's not the, it's not the money, that that does it, we've always been, you know, we've always been pretty good with our money, it's, you know, we, we came out of we paid off her student loans for her her med school, which I often referred to, you know, when we bought our house, we had two mortgages on it. So I referred to that as our third mortgage. But, you know, we paid it off, and, you know, I'm like, if you don't want to be a doctor anymore, don't be a doctor. It's like, okay, we've, we've, we paid this off, and let's just do what's gonna make ourselves happy. So it was a lot, it was a lot of that, you know, a lot of just taking a hard, you know, she had to deal with her practice, you know, basically, like, like, you alluded to, she was laying off people, all the partners of the practice, basically stopped taking payroll, so they could pay the remaining people and make rent, and, you know, pay for, you know, they keep the lights on and stuff like that. And I think it was, you know, I don't know, if there's really any insight other than just kind of having having a, the realization of like, money is just a tool to get where you want to be. So you're like, I'm making all this money now. Like, if I if I do that, I'm gonna take this huge pay cut? Well, you know, do you really, do you need all that money? You know, do you need to be making that much money? Or Could you be happy on less? And I've heard it also explained to have like, you know, somebody's looking and I think this was, this is on a doctor's podcast or something. So say, you know, a doctor is making $200,000 a year somewhere, and they could take another position that's paying $230,000. But like, all what if you if you if you took that now you're obviously making more money, but now maybe you're working longer? But maybe if you So, basically, instead of looking at like a if I work harder, and now I make more money, what if I make the same amount of money now, but work less and have more time? Because Is this the one thing that we all have? We all all only have 24 hours a day? So it's just like, what do you put your, what do you put your effort into? And you know, money's not going to solve that. So yeah, I don't know. It's kind of a long, rambling answer. But I would say it was just a lot of just knowing that, hey, we we're privileged, and there are people that would kill to have what we have now. Just even in this own country, not regardless of you know, other areas where people make a whole lot less. Let's try and be happy with what we have and be, you know, and take advantage of the great privilege that we have, and approach it from a standpoint of being happy. Yeah.
Akshay Sura
Sometimes the most, most expensive thing on the planet according to me, anyway, so right, yeah, use it wisely.
Derek Dysart
When I even looked before I was out of my own, you know, just even negotiating a position somewhere. I quickly man for a long time it's just like, I would gladly give up money if you give me more vacation just to have more time off. You know, that's, that's more valuable to me. And it wasn't you know, at that stage of life it is I've got kids, you know, I want to I want to spend the time with them. It might have been a lot different earlier in my career of like, I've got nothing else going on. Sure. I'll, you know, I can work more. So it's just, it's been it's been interesting. It's been an interesting journey for myself. I want to say, I remember when I listened to his Tim Ferriss book The Four Hour Workweek, which he Self admittedly says it's kind of a corny title. But there was there was a part in there that I think was very revelationary to me of, you know, it's a mental exercise for someone to do of you, especially if you're not happy with where you're at, like, imagine you have all the financial means in the world, what would you do? You know, and somebody to be like, you know, I would I would tour playing guitar in coffee shops or something like that, well great. Now, is that really what you wanted? Yeah, that's exactly what I would do. Okay, now figure out how much money would it take to actually do that. And you'd be surprised, it's not that much. Now. Just figure out a way to make just that much money. And go do that, as opposed to toiling away in a job you hate. And I feel like I learned that way too late in my career. But I would say anybody starting out, have that have that mindset of figure out what you want to do, you know, money's no object, what would you do? Now? figure, okay, so take that and figure out exactly how much money would it be like, hey, I want to drive around on a private jet, whether you're going to have to work because that's a lot of money. But like, maybe you want to, you want to sail around the world on a sailboat? Figure out how much that cost? You'd be surprised it's not that much. And, and then figure out how to make that life work for you, as opposed to just blindly going to work and making money and hoping to spend it someday.
Matthew McQueeny
Yeah, I think the I mean, personally, the, the, the COVID situation of the last, it's crazy. The time it's been now, right? It's like, over a year, but I have two kids, two, boys, six, and two. So there were points in the beginning, were like, Whoa, this is this is too much. But then there are points where you're also like, wow, never, ever would have had this time with them, at this time of their life at this time of my work life. And I think when you can look back, you know, those who didn't get COVID, or those who weren't terribly affected by it, we might look, in some cases back at this is something that was very, like, enlightening towards where we might go with the rest of what we have on this earth.
Derek Dysart
I really question what it's going to do to I mean, I haven't been a traditional worker for six years now. And I've worked from home, when I when I worked for Microsoft that worked in the field, we did not have a spot and one of the field offices, we were all work from home. So I started there in 2000. I've been technically working from home for the past 20 years. So but I you know, there was certainly a lot of time there where I was in an office, you know, when I started working on Sitecore, I was working at a digital agency, and was in the office all the time. And I look at now that all these companies have had to adapt to, you know, working for, you know, having their their workers work from home. How much is that going to change the corporate world I in fact, I subscribe to the Business Journal. And there was they had published there was somebody did a study, asking, I don't know how many 1000s of workers have, hey, if you could, you could either choose from coming back into the office, assuming you know, vaccines are great, and there's no chance of getting sick and any of that. And we'll give you a $30,000 bonus or will give you will give you a $30,000 raise, or you can work from home. And the majority of people said they would rather work from home. And it's just, it's it's a testament, I mean, like it's been for me, it's been probably the best kept secret of the past 20 years, I love working from home. But it takes it does take a certain it takes a certain mindset that I think a lot of people had to learn on the fly of like, no, you're not watching Netflix in the in the middle of the afternoon, you're actually doing work. And you know, you need to over communicate, because you're not going to see that person when you get up from your desk to go to the restroom or something, you know that you have to actually reach out to those people and and talk to them via whatever means it is if you're using Slack, or if you're using scene Zoom meetings or Teams or any of the collaborative, you know, they're just tools in the end, but you still have to have a way of having that connection. And I really question What that's going to do to corporate America.
Akshay Sura
And the I think the isolation has affected certain people in different way, right? So like originally working from home Whoa, I can't do this. I need to be around people kind of thing though. I've been working from home since 2011. And I absolutely love it gives me more time with the family. I can run out, errands and things like that. But I've also we know of a colleague or two who were, you know, mentally affected by being isolated that you know, unfortunately they don't they didn't have family close by they were single guys in both instances. So yeah
Derek Dysart
I was gonna say is the three of us all have kids, right. So you Got, you have people you're seeing on daily basis, whether it's like a dinner or breakfast or whatever I get to see, like if I was, you know, and lived in a one bedroom apartment by myself and was locked up that way, like, that would be hard. I think it would be really hard. Yeah. Yeah. So even working from home I before the lockdown, I would, I would crave adult interaction of you know, like my kids, like, my kids are older. You know, my oldest is 18. And then the middle one is 14, and my youngest is 10. But I would still when I was working from home, I would reach out to people just in the area of like, hey, let's go grab lunch. So I can talk to an adult for half an hour, 45 minutes. But you know that that wasn't an option for people
Akshay Sura
Yeah, so wrapping it up. Derek, what would be the advice now that you've learned a lot, especially the last year and a half, you've almost like searched your soul. And you and your wife have come to realizations and come to a larger understanding of what is most important to you in your life? Right. So what would you advise a 25 year old Derek?
Derek Dysart
That's a good question. Um, I think I would, I would go through that exercise of figure out what you want, figure out how much that's going to cost. And, and then do that, as opposed to don't just blindly chase success, you know, have some intentionality to it. I think that's the biggest thing, I would probably tell myself, you know, going through grinding through positions that, you know, I didn't necessarily care for that much knowing that, like, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna keep climbing that ladder. I think the other thing I would say, and I learned this way too late is know what you're worth. You know, when I first started freelancing, I, you know, it's embarrassing to see what I was billing. And, and I remember telling myself when I was at Microsoft was in the professional services division. And I would get customer satisfaction surveys of like, hey, this Derek is great. And I was, you know, they billed me on it, like 250 bucks an hour, and people were getting value for me. And so and then I was having trouble asking for, you know, 50 to 100 dollars an hour to do development, and your like, know the value you bring. And I think I learned that way too late in my career. But that that would be what I told myself at that age is know your value, and figure out what you truly want. And you know, what, if money was no object, what would you do with your time? Now figure out how to do that and figure out how much it costs and make enough to do that and then go from there.
Akshay Sura
That makes sense. So again, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us Derek.
Derek Dysart
Yeah. Thanks for having me on. This is, this is fun.
Akshay Sura
Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Thank you, so much.
Outro
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